The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode 73 · 5 months ago

Why Marketers Should Always Start With Why


The only way to truly impact is to align particular strategies with particular audiences. To continue pushing the needle forward as marketers, we must think strategically about why we do what we do. 

Chris Bender, the Assistant Dean for Communications at the University of Maryland, joins us today to discuss why marketers should think more strategically. Chris brings a wealth of experience and knowledge in higher ed marketing and talks with us today about how our work as marketers can be strategic and move business forward. 

Join us as we discuss:

  •  How marketers can better differentiate themselves from other schools. 
  •  Why it is essential to present yourself in a way that is strategically linked to the universities goals. 
  •  Why you should let the audience dictate strategy, not tactics. 

The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEMI APP enabling colleges and universities to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High Reed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer here with Bart Kaylor. Today we interview Chris Bender, who is the assistant deed for communications for the Aid James Clark School of Engineering at the University of Maryland and if you have a conversation with risks, his overall value that he will bring to that conversation is convincing marketers that they should speak and think more strategically instead of tactically, and he makes a great case for this within our podcast today. Yeah, try, I really enjoy the conversations with Chris. I mean this is you know, we've we've had several conversations with him and leading up to this podcast recording. But, um, he's so articulate and thoughtful in what he what he brings to the table and I really appreciate his desire not only for himself but for really kind of, uh, you know, illustrating it by example, of really trying to be more strategic in the way that he does all of his work, whether it's in the way he describes the management style that he has with his team or whether he's describing how to communicate, Um, the the impact that the marketing is making to various, you know, constituents on campus. I really think he brings a lot to the table. I would encourage you to kind of listen to this and he has some resources that he points out, a couple you know television shows that he encourages everyone to watch, as well as a book or two that he might mention as well. But it's it's such a rich conversation and and again we're we're kind of taking it to a strategic level on the way that we think about strategy today. So there's not gonna be a lot of tactics that you're gonna walk away with, but if there's plenty of notes that you can take on how to be a better, higher ed marketer. Here's our conversation with Chris Bender. We really appreciate Chris Coming on the PODCAST and being willing to share his opinion and knowledge of why marketers should think more strategically. But, Chris, before we go into the conversation, if you would please share something new and interesting that you've learned recently? Okay, I have a random one. So this is for anybody that has house plants. So in our home we have approximately ten, ten, ten or so house plants and this is, we don't doubt, for a much higher number. This was a...

...long negotiation process with my wife anyway. So there's a plant in our bedroom that has what plant people I didn't know but I now know as Spider Mites, and there are these tiny, tiny, tiny bugs and I had no idea how to get rid of them and I thought I was going to have to get rid of this plant, which I sort of like. But it turns out you can treat the plant with a little bit of alcohol, like you put it on a cute tip and then you rub the leaf and then you watch it off, and I had no idea you could do that. I thought alcohol was too Abrasive for a plant, but Kudos to one of my coworkers, Olga, she sort of turned beyond this solution and now the plant is in much better shape, so it will stay. Thank you. Yeah, that is wonderful. And at the end of the podcast when you give your contact information, it's not only for Higher Ed marketing but it's also for growing plants. Yeah, if you tell us a little bit about your role at the University of Maryland? Sure, so. I'm the Assistant Dean for Communications and I am really fortunate to work with a super talented team of individuals. They are all really good at what they do. They're all committed. We have a pretty flat way of operating in that you know at the end of the day, if the decision needs to get made, the people that know who need to make those decisions make the decisions. But there's a lot of collaboration, a lot of discussion. We talk a lot about what we think is the right thing to do. I, as a management philosophy, more facilitation philosophy, have this belief that, like, you get the best ideas when you get the people in the room, and so I think my job is a couple fold. I think one is to provide strategic direction for the team. You know, the team, rightfully, is very focused on, you know, what are we gonna do this week or what are we gonna do this month, and I think my job as a sort of push us solid think about where do we want to be in six or twelve months and then how do we link the day they work that we're doing to that six to twelve month goal? I think, too, it's to be a strategic advisor to leadership, so if a slippery situation comes up or an opportunity comes up, you know, to offer the best advice from the communications perspective about the right way to manage it. I think three, it's to represent what we do both internally and externally, and I think externally it's it's opportunities like this. But I think internally, you know a lot of times, and we can talk about this more, communicators not just an education but but generally I think, don't sell themselves as powerfully as they could. And so I think part of my job is to really make sure that our internal internal clients, internal partners like understand what we do, understand the value that we provide understand how we work and understand how best to work with us and how we could best work with them. And I think the last thing is to keep an eye on what's going on in the world, not just,... know, in communications, but generally, like what are the trends? You know, what's hot, what are people talking about? Where are they getting information, and like seeing what we can learn for those things and bringing them to the table. And I think all that is sort of wrapped around making sure that the group feels, you know, valued, respected Um like we're meeting their their needs for performance on the job, like we're thinking about work life balance, that kind of stuff. Thank you, Chris, and I think you've mentioned a lot that we can touch on during our time together. The first thing I wanted to ask you is about differentiation. I know a lot of higher end marketers think it's hard to differentiate themselves from other schools and would love to get your philosophy on how marketers could better do that. So, yeah, I think you hit upon it right. You know, the way I try to think about it is that at the end of the day, you know, all of us are doing sort of the same thing. You know, whether you work at a small liberal arts institution or whether you work at a big R one engineering institution. We're all trying to like, sell our ideas into the marketplace. And if you think about you know your audience as a bull's eye. Everyone is trying to get their Arrow into the middle of the bull's eye. So you have to be thinking about, you know, what's going to make my Arrow faster or bigger or come from a different angle, and I think the first way to do that is research. You've got to have a really good understanding of what what's happening around you. You know. So me as an example, I need to know what the other big ten plus engineering schools are doing from marketing perspective and I need to learn from that. And if I know that we're competing for the same talent pool, whether it's students or faculty or staff or speakers or donors or whatever, I need to be thinking about how can we position ourselves in a way that is unique and different and more powerful. I think a second thing is really thinking about trends that happen outside education that can influence what we do education. I think it's easy, whatever industry you're in. Right if you're in healthcare. I think in healthcare communications, I think it's easy to get trapped and only looking at what's happening in healthcare communications. If you're in hospitality communications, I think it's easy to get trapped in looking at what the other big hotel chains are doing. But I think to be really good at what all of us do, you know, you've got to be able to take a step back and say what what's moving the needle these days? What is unique, what is different, what are people tuning into, and how can we jump on some of those trends or how can we utilize the lessons from those trends in a way that works really well for US in communications? I will give you a quick example, if you don't mind. So we just opened this fantastic facility called the idea factory that's going to be home to robotics research, quantum research, autonomousis research, so on and so forth, and... the dedication event, which was in May, we did this video, this kind of two to three minute video tour of the facility, and we talked a lot about how to do it. But I had watched hard knocks with the Dallas cowboys the previous summer. Now I'm a San Diego chargers fan. Noticed I said San Diego, not L A, but I bring this up because you know, it's sort of a ritual in our house. Like come football season we watched hard knocks and at the beginning of the second or third season, sorry, the second or third episode of hard knocks from the cowboys season, there is a drone fly through of the facility where the cowboys practice and it is amazing. I would encourage everybody to watch it. It's like three minutes and the drone just does not stop. It goes in the door, it goes around the practice facility, it goes in the weight room. It's it's incredible and I had this idea that like, why don't we do that for the idea factory, because, like, drones are trending, it's interestring, it pulls people in and and I don't get the credit for executing it, our videographer lead did all the hard work. But I think the point of the matter is the idea came from a totally different place and we brought it into education and used it in a way that was powerful. So it's just an example to say like, look around, you know, see what's happening around you, see what's interesting, see what's unique, see what turns your head, you know, and then try to pull some of those things in. Some of them will work, some of them won't, but but be open to experimenting. I think I love that idea, Chris, and I I think that, you know, a lot of times I'll tell my clients to take a look at, you know, what's what's target doing, what's what's happening out there in, you know, similar industries that are, you know, targeting you know, generation Z or or your potential students. I mean, you know, look at what Apple's doing. I mean apple has been, you know, utilizing the iphone and you know, back in the day when they were, you know, doing the ipod and things like that, they had a very nique perspective on how to market to the same, you know, age frame, and so I think a lot of times we can do that. Take a nod from what's going on in corporate take a nod and what's going on in social and I think there's a lot of opportunities there that. Many times, I think as higher ed marketers, we kind of tend to start looking too closely to our belly buttons and not really looking out beyond the education area. I think part of it too, is is thinking about the work that we do in a different frame. So, as an example, you know, I think a lot of times again, regardless of what aspect of communications you're in, you know, if you're in telecom, you think about you know, we're gonna, we're gonna market a telecom story we're telling, we're selling telecom products, or if you're in education, you know we're trying to get people to come here. And and that's true. But I think again it's like, okay, take that step back and say to yourself, well, what are we really doing here? and to me, I think, regardless of whether you're in again, you know, telecom or hotels or communications for education, like we all are, like you're selling an idea, right, and the idea for us in... education is that this is a place where you can have access to, you know, the most cutting edge, interesting people, research facilities that are going to give you the tools to go change the world, like that's the idea. And if you step back and say to yourself, okay, so how do companies, how do it think takes or how do other education institutions sell ideas. That's really there are probably plenty of people to do that, but I would challenge people to say, like, think about it that way, like you're you're selling an idea, you're selling a concept and that is the concept. And then what do you need to do tactically to drive that? If that makes sense. It does make sense and you know, one of the one of the shows I enjoy watching sometimes when I'm traveling is shark tank, and I think that you know the idea of how they're pitching their ideas, how they're expressing themselves with these new things. I think there's a lot that can be gathered from that and learned. Um, I know you had referenced the Reality Show The pitch from a MC uh in our early pre pre conversation and I since then I've watched a few episodes of that and I think that's that gets some different brain cells moving as well. And maybe tell me a little bit about your experience with watching that, because I think you applied some of the thinking with that on that particular pilot episode. Yeah, so, first of all I would encourage everybody, as a laundry folding show, to watch the pitch if you don't know about the pitch, it's a show on AMC that ran right about the mad men time frames. So you know, everyone knows about mad men and if you you don't, then stop watching right now and go watch mad men and then come back to this podcast. So you can probably want stuff. Um. The pitch is the show is a reality show about, Um, you know, marketing firms, advertising agencies, and the concept basically is that there's a client at the beginning of the show that's got a marketing problem or an advertising problem. Two advertising agencies are brought in to try and figure out a solution. The show catalogs all of the creative development they do and then at the end they both pitch and somebody wins. The reason, you know, clearly I like it because this is what we do and it's interesting. But the other reason I like it is like you get a bird's eye view as to how other people approach the same challenges, you know. So A it's a learning it's a learning opportunity from the standpoint of watching other people be creative, watching how other teams work, watching how people collaborate, collaborate and like you could draw things that you think irrelevant into your work, but to the point. You know, you were just making Bart. So the first episode, and I'm gonna have to give a spoiler, I'm so sorry, but the first episode is about subway and you know, subway is in this episode really trying to think about how to sell it to breakfast products. And two firms come in and one firm does this whole like Zombie thing, right, they do this, Um, they do it. It's called ZAMBIES. It's like breakfast and zombies, zambies, and it's it's rate. It's first of all, it's great today,...

I think, but it was at the time when all the zombies were the rage and, like you know, so it's timeline. This other firm came in and they did this campaign that, if I remember it was called like let's remake breakfast. And you know, you watch the show and I admit I was convinced the Zombie firm was gonna win. Now, maybe the shows that I'm totally like shower was all into that trend or whatever. But the other firm one and after the show Tony Pace, who was the guy at that point that was the CMO for subway, talked about you know, you gotta go with the durable idea, and it really stuck with me, you know, because I think what we have to be able to do is find an idea that has both breakthrough and durable, you know, something that punches through, punches up, gets out of the clutter, gets into the center of that bowls light, whatever you want to say, and at the same time like sticks with people. And again I think it goes back to at original point we were talking about tenners so minutes ago. At some level, you know, all of the work that we do is similar, just like all of the work that hotel marketing is similar, just like all of the work that auto marketing is similar. So, like, what are you gonna say that's gonna make you stick apart? And I think actually the more fund and on a question is like how are you going to say it that's different? You know, think about the Lexus or infinity commercials. When they first hit. They were really unique and like people tuned in just because the delivery method was really unique. That's great. Yeah, I think there's so many ways that we can kind of look at that and I agree with you that I think sometimes looking outside of our own bubble is so valuable and I think that's a great idea. We talk a lot about it on the show. Schools are really struggling today that make the same at spend work. CPMS are up eighty nine year over a year. On facebook and instagram. Our College clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an own community where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why Zemi has become so crucial for our clients, with over one million students, close to ten thou five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top social lapps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week. There simply isn't anything out there like it, and we have seen it all. Zemy not only provides the best space for student engagement, but the most unique and action Wal data for the one sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from our clients that Zem me is a must have strategy for Gen z check them out now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E M E dot Com. And yes, tell him Barton Troy sent you. If you have a conversation with Chris, his overall value that he will bring to that conversation is convincing marketers that they should speak and think more strategically instead of tactically.

I think you summed it up in a nutshell. I mean, you know, Troy, you should print t shirts and just like like that's say, just that right, and I will say I um, I will say I learned this lesson from experience. So I have been in the tactical I had been in the tactical camp for many years and over the course of my career I figured out why the strategic camp is more power for one and how to get there. But but here's what I mean. I think that we in communications do so much good work and I see communications, and I think other people probably do too, as a business function, not necessarily a service function, and I don't mean business in the big B like we're here to make the money. I mean like we're here to help drive an organization forward, and we will always have a service capacity in that. You know, if something comes up that's immediate, which it always does in our field, we jump on that thing, whether it's an opportunity or a lunge. But a lot of times what happens I think for communicators across the board, not just an education, is that we think about ourselves in this tactical sense. So somebody says to us, you know, here's a prime example. You know, a communicator might say, I want to get us in the New York Times and you know, leadership might say, well, that sounds great. You know why? And some communicators, and used to be me, would say well, because it's The New York Times, it's a really important media outlet, and that is a true statement. But that is a totally tactical way of working at it and the people that are outside communications like they don't think tactically and they don't understand things the way we understand them. You know, it's it's the same thing as if I set to somebody in leadership. You know, we got five thousand impressions on this particular ad that inside a communications meeting. That has value. But like if I'm going to go talk to someone in leadership or someone in another part of the organization, what they want to know is, number one, how our work relates to the strategic goals or the strategic plan for the organization. And too, they want to know the impact that it had not the reach, the impact, you know, impressions is reached, people taking action is impact. And so to me, I think in communications, in marketing, it's really important that we we present ourselves in a way that is strategic and linked to the overall goals of the organization. And I think that's especially true in engineering, you know, just like it is if you work at a pharmaceutical company or you work at a telecom company, you know Um or you work, you work in healthcare and education, education, healthcare, those people that work in those disciplines are process oriented thinkers, right, you know, linear, process oriented thinkers. Communicators, for the most part, are pecular thinkers, and there's nothing...

...wrong with that. It takes both to like drive the world forward. But you can't communicate the work you're doing this way to an audience that thinks this way. So you've got to find ways to make your work, to describe your work, excuse me, in a way that is linear and process Orient and has links back to bigger tent poles and just we're putting up a twitter post. Sorry, I totally wanted to sell box. No, that's exactly I mean. That's that's so important because I, you know, I see so many times, and I think that Um agencies that support higher education are guilty of this as well, where I'll see reports from different Um, you know it's a digital agency or whatever, and they so focused on the you know, the clicks or the or the you know, impressions or all the other things, the things you just talked about. But at the end of the day, I think that, you know, as Higher Ed marketers, we owe it to ourselves to go to that level of strategy and the strategic level of thinking and say, how did we move the needle today? And, like you said, it's like, you know, what is the impact rather than what's that you know, impression and Um you know, the more people we have on a school visit or the more people that we have that have actually taken the called action of applying or, you know, we requesting more information or depositing or whatever metric we want to use. We've got to be able to measure that impact and tie that directly back to the tactics that we did and I think that when we can do that, that's when strategy starts to happen and when we can be strategic because, you know, we can spend all day long. You know what I call moving the deck chairs on the titanic, and it's just like, you know, we have these impressions, we have this and you know, Oh, isn't it great, but at the end of the day, if we don't have students showing up and, you know, and and and moving the the mission of the school forward, we're just we're just, we're just messing around and we're just doing a lot of busy work. Yeah, there's a good there's a quit good test that, you know, I would encourage people to use and I'm sure there's a lot of the audience that's already using it. You know, when you're thinking about doing something, whatever this something is, it's easy to ask yourself what you're doing and it's easy to let me rephrase that. It is often easier to ask yourself what, but step back and say why. Why is the relevant question. Are we doing this to drive the strategic plan forward? Are we doing this because it links to some other higher initiative that we're trying to launch? Like make sure you've got a good answer to the why, not only for yourself so that you know what you're doing, but so that you can explain it to other people in a way that makes sense to them. Now I love that idea. I love that start with. Why? I think that's a great way to go with that. There's a book with the title plane to win that Chris is a big believer in and recommends to marketers that he speaks to Chris. What is it about this book that...

...makes it so impactful? So I was first introduced to this book several years ago when I worked for Nova designs, which is a global biotech company, and the book basically, at its most foundational level, is about corporate strategy. But really what the book is about, at least to me as reading it as a communications person, is how do you think and communicate in a strategic way? So, as an example, you know most people, let me rephrase that, there are, there's there's an opportunity in communications when you're putting together a new initiative, like to think about you know your goal, okay, you know here's the goal, you know here's the objectives. Great, but what this book, I think, really forces you to think about is like, can you think one level up? So, in other words, what's the ambition? The goally ambition are different, right. The goal is what you want to get done with the particular effort that you're undertaking. The ambition is like if everything went to plan, if you had all the people, all the resources, all the time that you needed, what would the outcome look like? And the reason it's important to map that out is because it really makes you think about ultimately what you're driving for, because ultimately you're not necessarily just driving for that goal. You're driving to move the needle in some bigger way, like we've just been talking about. And and I think what the book forces you to think about is, how do I get into that mindset and then how do I communicate in that mindset, you know, and it's a really interesting read. Um, so I would encourage folks. You know, I know that we don't all have a lot of free time, but you know, if if you have downtime and books on like corporate strategy like that are interesting for you, check it out. There's a process that it talks through about how to think in a in a strategy Egypt, way from like big too much more focused, and there's a way that I found to adapt it for communications that works really well and I'm sure other people will be able to do the same, but it is. It is really good in helping to train people to think in the ways we've been talking about for the last couple of minutes. there. That's great. I think that resources like that Um that. I think that you know that. That book, I think, is a great way kind of moving yourself up on the ambition. But then also, like we talked earlier about, you know, the pitch and other looking for those places outside of what we do every day to kind of challenge us to move, move up the ladder for strategy. I think is is so critical. So that's that's great, good, good, and and there's an I mean there's another relevant example on that. You know. Okay, so a lot of times when let me again rephrase that. Sometimes I don't want to say I don't I don't want to overgeneralize. Sometimes we in communications have this tendency that we think about, you know, okay, here's our strategy, you know, here's the audience and then here the pctics we're under deploy. You know, first of all those should...

...really be flipped. The audience should dictate the strategy. But the second thing is that sometimes we get in this this mode where we go like regardless of the different audience segments, we're going to run the same strategy and the same tactics and like that. Again, that's not a strategic way of looking at it. So you've got to say to your stuff, okay, for for this particular effort, whatever the effort is, there's three distinct audiences. If there are three distinct audiences, we need to have three distinct strategies and three distinct lines of tactics, three sets of deliberals, three sets of measures. That, like, that's the only way, you know, you really move the needle, and it's it's more granular than I think sometimes we force ourselves to go. But you know, to to Bart's point earlier about like impact, it's the only way to really make impact is to align the very particular things with the very particular audience. So it just again, it goes back to the idea from the book and it goes back to the thing we talked about early. You're about being strategic versus tactical. The more you can force yourself to be granular and linear and link back to big things, the more detailed and well thought your strategy will go. Chris, we end every episode by asking this question to our guest. If there's a piece of advice or an idea that you could share with marketers that would have immediate impact for their career or life or their processes, what would that be? Can I share it too? Absolutely all right. Um, one would be and I am sure there are plenty of really, really good folks out there doing this already, but it's just, I think, a good reminder. Do everything you can to put your team's Co workers, student workers, all of it, in a position where they've got good work life balance, where they feel valued, Um, where they have room to do what it is that they do best. You know, I I there are plenty of things that I think I do well as a as a leader. There's plenty of things that I know I need to work on as a leader, but I think one of the things that I try to do is like just get out of my people's way, like removal roadblocks, and like let them do what they're good at doing, and I would just encourage everybody as much as you can do that. It just you know, you've got great people, let him work. Second, much more tactically, keep a folder on your desk of great ideas. You know it can be things that you pull out of a magazine. It can be I mean my my wife and I were at this restaurant in New York and they had this coaster that I thought, from a design perspective, is really cool. I took the coaster. You know, they looked at me a little nuts when I told them. You know, Um, it can be things that you see online and pronout. It can be photos you take and just pronount. But like have a a physical not not a computer. I've like have a physical idea folder and anytime you're thinking, you...

...know, let me rephrase that, once once every regular interval, whatever that is for you, once every two weeks or whatever, once a month, go in there and thumb through it. Invariably you will see something that will spur a thought. It may not work for you at that particular time. You made his bookmark it going. I'm going to come back to that, but it is the best way I have found to like very practically, going back to the beginning of our conversation, find things that help set you apart. It's easy to like say that get lost, but if you make it really practical and really easy, it can actually be kind of a fun journey. That's great, Chris. I have to tell you that you brought that up in our pre interview and everybody can't see it because we aren't on video, but I have. I have created my idea folder and I've already started putting things in it this past week. So thanks for that real practical to do it, Chris. For any of our listeners that would like to reach out to you, what would be the best way for them to do that? You are welcome to email me. My email is C S Bender B E N D E R at U, M D dot e D U, or you can hit me up on Linkedin. Either one of those works. Thank you, Chris. You are so fun to talk to and to listen to, and thank you for sharing the impactful wisdom that you did. By all means. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with everybody and I'm gonna go check on my house plan. Bart, what are your final thoughts? I just wanna again thank Chris for being on the show today. I think he's just brought a wealth of experience and knowledge to the to the PODCAST, and I'm grateful for that. This is one of those episodes that we didn't necessarily get into tactics of hey, here's six of the ways that you can do social media better, or here's, you know, nine ways to better do your messaging. Those are tactics and I think those have places and a lot of our episodes have that. But one of the things I think that this episode particularly did that I that I really value, and I've I've had that from other guests as well, is is taking us to that next level up of of the why, and I think that Chris made some really good points about, you know, really starting with that why and and even even to the point of, you know, why do we do this podcast? What? Why are we doing what we're doing? It's it's to really impact hired marketers and and everyone who's listening, to to do our job better, to Um, have a greater voice at the table. Um. You know, we've talked to a lot of different people, whether it's, you know, Ethan Braden at purdue or Jamie Hunt at at Miami, these different chief marketing officers, and how quickly they say how important it is for for marketers to have a voice at the table and to really be able to represent that well and and be able to help everyone understand that that what we do does...

...move business forward, as as Chris kind of illustrated in there. So I think that's really important and it's also very important, as we really become more strategic, that we show how our work has strategic impact rather than just, you know, sometimes we get kind of UH. I always we've always talked about it before and my company is, you know, we like to wear the Beret sometimes and it's like, okay, you know, it's it's fun to wear the Beret and when the when the art awards and the design awards, but at the end of the day, are we impacting the bottom line of our institutions and are we really moving forward what the institution is all about? And I really think that was some great things that that Chris brought up and I really love the idea of of really kind of moving beyond just our goals and and looking at ambition. You know what what is at the end of the day that when we put our heads on our pillows at night, what are we most proud of that we can say, you know what, this really happened and this was something that that my team was able to do and and make a big, big impact, and not only the lives of our institution, it in the lives of the students that we serve. So, Chris, thanks again for for bringing your wisdom to the show and you're welcome back anytime. Thank you very much. I hope everyone's you know, learn something and I'm looking forward to learning from your other guests and your audience as well. Great thanks. The Higher End Marketer podcast is brought to you by Kaylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by Think, patented, a Marketing Execution Company combining print and digital assets for higher impact within your communications. On behalf of Bark Kaylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars do you think the podcast deserves. UNTIL NEXT TIME, all L.

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