The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode 69 · 4 months ago

The Key to Successful Content Marketing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The goal is not to be good at social media; the goal is to be better in Higher Ed because of social media.  

Jay Bear, founder of Convince & Convert, a content marketing consulting and social media strategy company. Jay is also a bestselling author of 6 content marketing and customer experience, a hall of fame keynote speaker, and an emcee. Jay joins Troy and Bart to offer a wealth of knowledge on how successful content marketing can benefit higher ed.  

Join us as we discuss:

  • Alignment between enrollment and the student experience.
  • Helping universities understand communication modalities.
  • Helping universities understand market research, personal development, and the customer matching journey. 

The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEMI APP enabling colleges and universities to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another edition of the Higher Ed Marketer Podcast, where, each week we interview high reed marketers that we admire for the benefit and the betterment of the entire Higher Ed Marketing Community. Today, Bart, we get to talk to one of the leading influencers and minds in higher red marketing, I should say in marketing for all, Jay Bear, and if you haven't heard that name, it's a name that you should know and should follow, because he is a best selling author and just someone that gives great content around effective marketing. Yeah, I I got introduced to Jay through one of his books called utility, probably about nearly ten years ago. I think it came out in two thousand thirteen. It really is one of those things. You know, and you all know that you know when you when you read a book and it really kind of changes the way that you think about things, kind of opens your eyes to a lot of things. That's what Jay's book did to me, Um, really kind of influenced my my thoughts about content marketing. Um, you know, I could probably even say that the genesis of the Higher Ed Marketer happened then, because I realized that there's questions that people have, there's there's things that they're searching for, and what we need to do is provide that. And so that's part of the part of why we do the Higher Ed Marketers, to provide those answers that you might be seeking and you might not even know those questions yet, and so bringing on people like Jay to do that. He's been a leading thinker in this. He's been in the in the space for years. He Um, I got introduced to him through Ethan Braden, who's another one of our guests who have been on the on the podcast a couple of times, and so I really like everything that Jay talks about. I really like to the fact that Jay has his foot in both higher ed marketing, but he does a lot of work in corporate too, and I remember, you know, early in my career I was doing work with with, you know, higher education, uh schools, but I was also doing work with like motorole in our C A and consumer brands, and you learn a lot about just the way marketing works and how to apply that back and forth, and so I think Jay brings that expertise as well. You'll be a fan after this episode, if you aren't a fan already of Jay. Here's our conversation with Jay Bear. We are so excited to welcome to the High Ed Marketer podcast Jay Bear. With a lot of you know, is a author of six books, best...

...sellers, also a hall of fame keynote speaker and MC but a lot of us know him as the business leader. He is the founder of convinced and convert, which is a content marketing, consulting and Social Media Strategy Company. Jay, thank you so much for joining the Higher Reed Marketer podcast. Trey Bart, fantastic to be here. Thanks for having me excited to be on the show. If you could for those that might not be familiar with convincing convert. Could you let us know what the company does, especially around Higher Reed Marketing? Sure you bet. Or a fifteen year old consultancy with strategists located across the United States. We help midsize sand large organizations do better digital marketing and better overall customer experience. I have lots of clients in Higher Ed for whom we help them with social media content marketings. Are Pan Digital Strategy, digital transfer, Shin customer experience, essentially taking what they're doing and making it better. We're not a tactical frontline agency in the classic sense. You know, we're not gonna design your facebook ads, for example, but we'll tell you what you should be doing in in in paid advertising strategically. That's great, Troy. I just wanted to jump in and I'm so excited to have J on here. I've I've I think I was introduced to Jay's work in two thousand thirteen when he launched his book utility, and it's one that I kind of really framed the way that I looked at digital marketing and content marketing. Um, you know, I've I've had a lot of people see my slides where I have quoted J in those and I've always been struck with the idea that the key, and I really believe this truly is the key, to really successful content marketing is being able to answer the questions that your your prospective students want and what they're seeking for. And you know that that goes all the way across so many things. And and I really think that when we get into talking about social media strategy, uh, I mean, that's really where a lot of things start, isn't? Isn't a jam? Mean we've really got to be able to, you know, understand where the mindset is of our perspective students and what's going on. Yeah, it's tricky because the goal is not to be good at social media. The goal is to be good at at business or higher red because of social media, and sometimes those work a little bit across purposes. I would I would argue that higher reed organizations have as difficult of a strategic assignment as any kind of organization with regards to social media, because there are so many strategic mouths to feat. Right, you've got an enrollment goal, you've got, uh, an overall branding goal. Maybe you've got an athletics school, you've got a student services and student life goal and on. And then you've got individual units and departments, Um, humanities and everything else. There's just a lot of people wanting to use social media for a lot of different things, Um, and...

...you only have so many accounts and figuring out what goes on the main account and what goes on the individual accounts and how they intersect and and what gets elevated to the mother ship. It's just a challenge, which is why convinced convert work works with so many major higher ed organizations to try and solve that challenge. And there's no right answer. It does depend on campus and sort of the culture of each organization a little bit, but, Um, it's it's not an easy problem to solve. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And full transparency, Jay, and I met through Ethan Braden, who's been on the podcast a couple of times. He's a friend of the Higher Ed Marketer and so a purdue. I know that they've leveraged a lot of your expertise and the work of convinced and convert, but I think that one of the things you just said that reminded me of a conversation we have with Brian Kenney who's the CMO at Harvard Business School. Um. We had him on the podcast a few episodes ago and he's been in you know, he's he's sat in the CMO seat in a lot of different industries and and he's convinced that higher Ed is one of the most difficult industries to do marketing, and primarily for what you just said. There's so many mouths to feed, there's so many constituent groups that really when you think about it, how many other how many other firms have to you know why? You know, market to the wide swath of of all the generations in certain ways, that that that higher ed does. No question and it's such a good point and really salient today when you're trying to communicate to, say, a faculty member versus a alum, versus a parent of a current student, versus an existing student versus a perspective student, those are five colossally different personas. We're lucky at convinced a convert because we do a lot of higher ed strategy, but also a lot of strategy and other industries, traveling, tourism, technology, financial services and on and on and on. And I will tell you, like Cisco, for example, is a large client of ours. CISCO HAS A lot of different client types. It's a giant global company, but those client types and those audiences are far and more similar then what you would find in any modestly sized, Higher Ed Organization. So you can't really have a strategy. You've got a whole bunch of other strategy. You've got many specific strategies that work together. Is really the approach, and I think you mentioned in Ethan from purduce. They've done a nice job figuring that out right, that there is a master strategy and then specific strategies and operations plans for each key unit and even for each key theme or or differentiator that produce has. I like how you how you articulated that, because I think that that's one of the keys, especially when we're talking about social media. I mean you've got so many different audiences to begin with. Then you have the preferred channels that those audiences like to consume their social media. And you know, I was I was doing a Prev presentation recently to a group of colleges and and and and leaders and I was pointing out a slide that I had done in two thousand sixteen and I said you know my daughter, she's twelve. She's into...

...this new social media called musically, something you need to be paying attention to because, you know, I don't know enough about it, but she's really into it and her friends are into it. Well, guess what it's called Tiktok today and uh, it's it's one of those things that, you know, I have so many, so many higher ed marketers that tell me, boy, I just can't keep up. and Um, I often say, you know, what are you doing per the segment and are you doing those well, because there's no sense of you getting into Tiktok if you're not even doing facebook well for your alumni. Absolutely, yeah, there's no question. But you may put different people on each of those channels for for different purposes. And you're right, though. I mean marketing has a very difficult challenge, and really has since the invention of the Internet, in that the tactics and the cadence of marketing changes perhaps more than any other element of the enterprise. You never have a quarter, much less a year, much last five year, like yeah, we're just doing the same thing again, like never. Right, it's constant, constant optimization and reinvention, and I will tell you some people are totally wired for that Gig and other people just aren't. And it doesn't make them bad marketers and it certainly doesn't make them bad people, but it does make them perhaps ill suited for modern marketing, because I can tell you I've been doing this now for thirty years. I started in the Internet business when domain names were free, and I can tell you it's not gonna get easier. It's not like you know, oh, but you know what, in that we're gonna stop having new stuff to worry about. Nope, it's just gonna get harder. And I love your tiktok example, because Tiktok is working the exact same pattern that every other social network has worked. It starts with the youth and then it Broun's its appealed to other people. To wit. Gentlemen, I am a Tequila teacher. I'm a certified Tequila Somalia and I've recently started a Tiktok Tequila teaching channel, Tequila Jay Bear. I just put out a TIKTOK video ten days ago. Eight hundred and seventy five thousand views on Tiktok me talking to a camera about Tequila. Right I mean it's it's crazy, crazy, yeah, and I we had we had Rob Clark on a couple of weeks ago. He's a former director of admissions at one of the schools that that I'm affiliated with and that's how we met. He since, you know, left his his son is seven one and so he's a he's a junior in high school and so he's working towards, you know, d one type of scholarships. But they started a tiktok account called the tall family and, uh, you know, they've had over your you know who they are, and they've had over a billion views. And he talked about how how enrollment and and Higher Ed marketers need to approach this, and I just want to kind of run it past you. He said we've got to stop acting like this is the alumni magazine and reviewing everything and getting approvals. You have to basically just kind of work, you know, get the students involved and just start doing it on a daily basis, and that's the only way you're gonna gain followers. And I had this conversation last week on a campus and, you know, the marketing team was like,...

...well, this is the rules, we're gonna do one TIKTOK per week. One is by the admissions team and one by the marketing team, and I'm like, you're never going to get any followers that way because it's it doesn't fit the model of traditional, you know, marketing brand approval in a large organization. Yeah, when you think about content, there's a couple of different approaches. There's the filmmaker approach. We're gonna make a movie and that movie is going to have talented actors and it's going to have a professional director and we're probably gonna have a lighting crew and a microphone and maybe even like a table of free food just off camera. Right it's a craft shop. And then you've got sort of the documentary style, which is we're just walking around at the camera and we'll fix it in edit. And tiktok very much rewards the latter, not the former. In fact, most people who overproduce and sort of trying to make their tiktok's quote unquote, profect Chanel uh, it usually doesn't work as well as if it is a little more run and gun. There's a level of authenticity there which, frankly, used to be the case when instagram first came out. was certainly the case when vine first came out. So a lot of these neo platforms, because they start younger, tend to Um tune their algorithm around kind of unofficial style content and then, as you get bigger and you've got more AD dollars from larger brands to play sometimes they start to tilt it back the other way towards a little bit more structured content. We'll see what happens with TIKTOK. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Another challenge that your company addresses is alignment between enrollments in either corporate operations or with sorry, thank you very much, Jay. Another challenge that convinced and convert addresses is alignement between enrollment and also marketing or corporate organization. Like to know if you could kind of explain the challenges that you address and how you fix them for organizations. Yeah, I mean one of the challenges that we see constantly when we work with higher ed is that many cases the enrollment marketing function and the enrollment marketing team is kind of isolated. They oftentimes have their own assignment, their own metrics, their own budget and that's not necessarily integrated into the enterprise. There's some obvious inefficiencies to do in marketing that way. But the bigger challenge is that in many cases enrollment marketing is writing checks that the operations of the university can't cash. So so they're saying this is what it's like to be a student here and please fill out this very complicated application that doesn't work on a mobile phone. And then somebody decides okay, yeah, I'm interested, and then they come for a tour, but the tour doesn't really say the things that they heard in the enrollment keeting. And then they show up on campus, they decide to matriculate...

...and it's a different set of circumstances as well. So in business we wouldn't do it that way. Right, in a non higher ed world you would never do it that way. You would have a unified customer journey map that says, all right, what messages do we say about our business at the awareness phase? What messages do we say at the interest phase, what messages do we say at the conversion phase, what messages do we say at the advocacy phase? And those are aligned so that we're always telling a similar story and we're and we're changing that story based on funnel stage in Higher Ed. So often the story changes based on department and that causes some confusion, uh and and, frankly, some dissatisfaction amongst students and parents later down in the process. So aligning that and trying to get everybody sitting out of the same hymnal as one of the things that we've done a lot at convince and convert. Wouldn't you say to J that, based on that Um? You know, I've often and I know there's different, different modes of thinking about this and honestly, I think in the thirty years that I've worked in the Higher Ed Space, Um, I have seen a big shift in you know, thirty years ago, you you get a lot of cold stairs if you use the word customer or sales or anything that had to do. I mean, it was kind of like taboo to talk about, you know, the business of of higher education. I see that changing. But I see that in some like some schools, like, I'm going to use Ethernet per due, there's chief marketing officers sitting at the table, they are at the at the top of the table and they are driving a lot of of what's going on. Um. Other institutions that I work with, though a lot of times faculty. You are driving that and there's a lot of a lot of tension, a lot of challenges going on because, I mean, I talked to a market or the other day that said, Hey, I just got word that we have a new program that they want filled for fall and I have to market and fill it for the next three three months and I don't even know it's if it's market a bowl. I don't know if there's a desire in the marketplace for this particular program how, how are you working with your clients about that? I mean, is that something you're experiencing and it's and and how how do you help? You know that the marketing officers realize that they've they've got to have a seat there and they've got to have a voice at some level. We assist with that kind of change management. Uh, and in fact there's a number of large institutions where we've been really intimately involved in, I don't want to say centralizing marketing, because sometimes that takes on a negative connotation inside higher reed, but from a functional standpoint that's a little bit of how it goes. Like somebody is a CMO and we can decide what the unified strategy is and then here's what the department strategy is. So we've done a lot of that work with Arizona State, for example, and in other organizations that have a little bit more of a business style command and control structure. And then we've also worked with lots and lots of higher reed that has more of the traditional decentralized marketing approach that you just mentioned, Bart when when we are in the decentralized approach, oftentimes we advocate for a little...

...bit more of a centralized Um way of doing things, but but typically that is that is a provost in president level decision that that supersedes our ability as consultants too effectually change. So when we have a decentralized system, the best thing you can do, in my estimation, is to really leak into centers of excellence to say look, we've got a whole bunch of of talented marketers on on staff in a bunch of different units on campus. Let's make sure that if somebody learns something, everybody learns something. So a lot of knowledge transfer, a lot of weekly meetings. In a lot of cases my team will actually create the agendas and run the meetings and say hey, this week we're gonna do a whole session for every marketer on campus about video, s e o or whatever the topic is, so that everybody kind of levels up, because if you don't have a structure where there's managers and directors and VPS, etcetera, where the knowledge transfer happens waterfowl style, you have to have a scenario where the knowledge transfer happens horizontally, like river style, and and that's the best way you can. You can still execute marketing. If somebody says, Hey, congratulations, you've got two months to Philip Program you've never heard of. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think that there's a lot of common challenges. Whether it's a very small school or whether it's, you know, a large, d one school, there there's challenges that we all share. That's part of the reason why we're doing this podcast. So I'm happy that you're here. Try. Similarly, you're helping universities understand the communication modalities and how they can best utilize and communicate within them. Can you explain how you help universities with that? What I say modality, what I actually mean is the format of the communication. Is it text, is it audio? Is it video? Is it a puppet show? Is it, AH, you know, a cookie gram? There's a lot of ways to communicate these these days. Higher Reed has historically, of course, been I don't want to say addicted to, but certainly a proponent of written communication, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But probably more than any time maybe in recorded history, we have broader differences in modality preference than we maybe ever have. It is very, very true that younger people prefer not reading. In many cases it's I'll tell you a story about that. So when my son, who's now a junior at Indiana University, when he still lived at home, it is pretty common that we'd be having breakfast in the morning at the kind of the breakfast breakfast bar there. I'd be on my phone and he'd be on his phone and I look over and we'd both be on ESPN DOT com. We're both big sports fans, and we'd be on the exact same article, except I'd be reading the article and he'd be watching the video because, as many people know, it's very common on a site like that that they put a video on top and then the full text underneath, and I would be reading it because I am an old and he would be watching the video because he is a young now that is an oversimplification of reality, but not very much. The New York Times did a study last year where they interviewed like two thousand college students about their modality preferences, and my favorite quote...

...in the whole study was from a college student who said every time I get an email I feel like I'm being stabbed. It's just something else for me to do. Yet how often does higher ed rely on email as like the exclusive means of student communication? And it is not at all atypical, and you, gentlemen both know this, as do many of your listeners, that the only reason these students are checking email is because the university might send them something. Like my son Ethan has like forty D unread emails. I just saw his phone. He came over for dinner last night and I'm like forty D unread emails. Who are these from? He's like I don't know, I don't check my email imminently. So we've just got to understand that we can't create content only in the formats that we prefer. We have to create content in the formats that our audience prefers and sometimes that means you've got to take the same message, the same story and make it in a bunch of different ways. Take the same message about Your Alumni Association and and what happens when you graduate in your first part of the Alumni Association. That's an important piece of communication. Do that in text, but also do it in audio as a series of podcasts, and also do it as a series of videos and also do it in direct mail. Do it all the different ways. There's no right answer. The right answer is making sure you create everything in the format that people actually want. We talk a lot about it on this show. Schools are really struggling today that make the same at spend work. CPMS are up eight nine year over year on facebook and instagram. Our College clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an owned community where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why Zemi has become so crucial for our clients. With over one million students, close to ten thousand five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top social laps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week. There simply isn't anything out there like it and we have seen it all. Zem Not only provides the best space for student engagement but the most unique and actional data for the sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from our clients that Zee me is a must have strategy for Gen z check them out now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E M E dot Com. And yes, tell them Barton Troy sent you. I like. I like that because I think that not only do we need to two recommend or not only do we need to do recognize, but also, Um, basically allow them to have the choice and preference of how they do that. I mean, I love so many times when somebody says, what's your preferred way of communicating? Do you want to have a text? You want an email? Do you want to have a phone call? Well, certain times I'll want to text, other times I met one a phone call, young, old, it doesn't matter. We have our own preferences and I think that it's time that we really start to, you know, honor everybody's preferences, especially since...

...there's so many ways and, as you said, there's not a right or wrong way to do it, but it's just a matter of the more we can do that. We talk so much about personalization Troy, and I've talked about that a lot. I'm sure you guys talk about that too, Jay, and the importance of especially for traditional Undergrad but even really anybody. Everybody likes to feel personalized and they like to feel recognized. Part of that personalization is not only, you know, serving up content that we know is going to be relevant to them, but doing it through modality it's going to be relevant to them as well. Absolutely, personalization is relevance and relevance is respect, and when you offer that respect, it becomes more useful and you gain more attention. It's a it's a simple formative but harder to do sometimes day to day. I would agree with that. I think that's an excellent point. So along that, thinking of personalization, I know that your company also helps schools with market research and personal development and the customer journey map being, and I believe the said Persona Development. How do you help them research that and develop it and then let them know how to best communicate with those personas? It's very common troy in in marketing and calms, especially in Higher Ed, to think of our constituencies based on age. Cohort very, very common for foundations and alumni associations. You've got the current student cohort, you've got the recent Grad Cohort, you've got the kind of mid career cohort, the late career corehor the retired cohort, right, and so you think, all right, let's look at the audience horizontally based on how old they are and in prison, wably, their life stage. Well, it turns out that that doesn't actually work. Um, psychologically right. It's much better off to understand what the motivations and relationship is between that alum and the university or college and that relationship up. As it turns out, based on lots of research we've done from many, many campuses, that relationship is often based on where they live, what they did in school when they were there, how many friends they had when they went to school, what activities they were in. So it's not so much well, if they're fifty, then they should really be a great candidate for a donation. It's based more so on were they really active when they're on campus, when they were there, etcetera. Etcetera. So that kind of research, which is based very much on attitudinal uh conditions, create richer, more useful personas than just basing it on ape. I love that and that conversation came up with a couple of clients last week with the idea that, you know, we've got to necessarily look at what we were talking about how to gather outcomes, you know, stories that we want to tell people and uh, you know, I think that sometimes we forget as higher ed marketers that, you know, really those outcomes are going to be based on the affinities that they had. And so more than likely, if they had a professor that was really a mentor to them and a friend and they've continued that relationship through that person is going to know a lot...

...more than the official alumni office would. Um, you know, a student is going to just be communicating on facebook or or through email or through texting or whatever it is, with their with their mentor and with their those professors and those relationships that they had in that affinity group, whether it was a department or, you know, theater group or choral group or whatever it was. Those relationships are there and so I think it's so important that, as hired markets, we understand through the personas that you just described, but also to find out where does that knowledge live? And it usually is going to live deeper down in those affinity groups than it would in any kind of official database, and what we've got to do is figure out how to harvest it out of those places and start leveraging it and collecting it and managing in a way that we can then start to tell those stories. Yeah, start starting managing that data and collecting it while they're on campus. Has undergrads so often we start to collect the data once they leave campus, once they've graduated, and start doing surveys alumnives, etcetera, etcetera, instead of doing more undergrad surveys to start to build that profile which then can be used later, and especially now in this era of third party data going away and we're going to have to really rely on our own collected first and zero party data. The time to start learning more about your eventual alums is the second they set foot on campus for the first time, the day they come on the tour for the first time. What question did they ask on the tour of the tour guide? That should be in the database. Now, I understand that requires a lot of centralized operations that a lot of campuses just aren't ready to do yet, but that's the direction we're got for sure. Those who have the best data will win, period. I don't care what business you're in, because matters higher ed or you're selling cars or you're selling jewelry or selling hamburgers. Whoever knows the most will sell the most. I think it's a great way to put it. I DID A blog post a couple of years ago that was about kind of the the life cycle of a of a you know, of of a relationship of a higher ed to a student, and I started out with, you know, the prospect fae is I think I've figured out fifty two different, you know, points that they would be, you know, different persona points that they might be, all the way to a major donor who has their name on the, you know, a large building on campus. We have to be able to measure that and keep track of that and and keep that relationship continuing to grow all the way through. And No, not every student is going to be a major donor that's going to have their name on the building. We know that, but we do have the ability to keep that relationship going and I love that idea that you have of just being able to figure out that and collect that and and, you know, quantify and analyze and organize that into data. And, uh, you know, their tools are out there. It's just the discipline and the centrality of being able to do that took the words right out of my mouth. The technology is there right now, today, right it's not a big deal. It's not our moon launch or anything crazy. It's totally there. It's just getting the people aligned is so much harder than getting the technology and perfect. As we bring the episode to a closed, a like to know...

...if there would be a final thought or an impactful piece of advice that you could offer our listeners that they could that they could utilize either right away or within the next week or so. I'll give you two. Uh. One on the strategy side, I would say it can be really frustrating for higher end marketers because there's always a very, very long list of things that they could or should or want to do. Usually the list is longer than their ability to execute on the list and that creates a lot of Um, I think, dissatisfaction and and just at some level on happiness amongst marketers in higher end. And so what I would tell folks out there is, you know, you can't you can't boil the ocean. Just set out to do a few things better every ninety days and eventually you'll be on top of it. When you when you look at the whole list it it seems too daunting. So you've got to focus on a few things and execute on those. And that's one of the things that our friend ethane perdue has been so good at. Say Hey, let's let's not let's not keep all the things in mind. That's his job at the CMO. Let's execute on a few very specific things, get those done and then move on to the next two or three things. It's a much better way to go about it. Uh. And then the second thing I would say on a more on a more tactical Um side is to understand that sometimes to get your core messaging seen, you have to wrap it up in messaging that's not escort. So, for example, we're working with a hired ED institution, I won't name which one, and their president said, you know, we're we're doing all this great work in research. How come when we put messages out in social media about that. It doesn't go anywhere. I'm like well, because it is great work, but it's not terribly interesting to everybody. It's a little bit dry. And so what we explained to this president was what I call the Candy, Candy Vegetables Philosophy. Candy Candy actables works like this. You put something out in social media that most people are gonna like. It's a it's a nostalgia post or it's something from the mascot or it's something that's a little more universally beloved. It's a campus building, it's a cheese steak restaurant near campus, something like that. It's a trivia question about something on campus. That gets the algorithm excited about your content. Then you put out another piece of candy, which gets the Algorithm even more excited about your content, and then you swoop in there with the vegetables Um and you get a little extra credit from the Algorithm because you've given them candy before. So this idea of Candy Candy vegetables we've actually tested many, many times scientifically and it really really works. Sometimes it's difficult to get some people in the administration to understand that like. Hey, it's not frivolity, it's marketing and and sort of understanding the difference. There's some requires some conversations sometime, but it really works. Thank you very much, Jay. Thank you so much for the wisdom that you've of into...

...the half an hour that we've had with you. If someone would like to contact you, I usually ask this question, but you're truly a person that could just answer it and say Google me. But if someone really wanted to ask you a question and contact you personally, what would be the best direct way for them to do so? I'll give you to troy. I'm trying to over deliver here. First, go to convince and convert DOT COM. CONVINCE AND CONVERT DOT COM. That's our main website with lots of resources for hired specifically in marketers in general. And then I have a newsletter which, ironically, I put out via email. UH, probably a terrible idea. It's called the bare facts. Comes out twice a month. There's marketing, customer experience lessons, Tequila reviews, podcast recommendations like this one, book reviews. It's the bare facts dot com. B A e R. Sign Up. I'd love to have you a list everyone who is familiar with you is not surprised that you over deliver with everything you do and keep very much for being a guest cast part. Any final thoughts from you? Yeah, I just want to kind of pull out a few things of that I really think was valuable in this and I would encourage people to, you know, re listen to this. I mean there's so many really good nuggets in here that that Jay gave us today and uh, I really appreciate that, Jay. But a couple of things I just want to point out is that, you know, when you start tooking looking at this and you start looking at social media, when you look at content, you've got to understand that there's you know, yes, you can create that content, but several things that Jay said I want to really point out. There's three things. One is the modality understanding, you know, the different ways of doing it, and I really love the comment that he made about the fact that, you know what, you might have that one message, but I might need to go in email, texting, video, audio, there might be several different ways of delivering that message. Don't rely on just one. Don't think that Oh, we we told him, well, you told him, but you didn't tell them in their preference. And that goes to the second thing of starting to really identify who are the personas that we're talking to, whether that's spect of students that are traditional undergrad whether it's alumni, you know, moving beyond that what j called the horizontal, you know grouping of everything, but really kind of looking at that affinity grouping, really trying to kind of then identify those personas. And then that third item is just really starting to understand how you're going to do that and the ways you're going to do that. I really particularly like that Candy, Candy Vegetable example, where you know you've got to be able to do that, and that's I mean we talked about it being the algorithms and we talked about it with social media, but you know what, we all kind of like that. I mean, at the at the end of the day, our brains are wired to kind of look at things that we really enjoy and then look at things that we really need to look at, and that's why a lot of us suffer from some of the things we suffer from, whether it's a you know, not having the attention that we need to or or whatever that might be. That's just the way that we're wired sometimes, and being able to kind of understand that and work within that is really good, and so I'm just really grateful for for j being on here today. I would just also remind you, Um, you know, as I mentioned before, I first learned about J and I've learned a lot from J through his books. But you know, a couple that I...

...really you know three that I'm going to point out. Utility, really good basics of content marketing and and and some of the social media elements. Hug Your haters, you know how to really kind of engage in relationships and how those things happen and how you you know, how you respond to those things. And then the talk triggers, you know, complete guide to creating customers with word of mouth. said, we didn't really talk about that today, but I think that's another really big element, especially when you talk about perspective students and and that generation Z um and and as we talk about generation Alpha coming. I mean, you know we've talked about that a few times. We had mark mccrendall on a few episodes ago with the idea of, you know, he's the leading expert in the world on generation Alpha. He talked to us about how that's going to be different from any other generation we're working with, and so start to educate yourself on that, understand that, because that's gonna be a big part of this word of mouth marketing. Um and and UH and again, just thank you, Jay. Really appreciate the time today. My pleasure. Thanks to both of you and everybody listening. If my team and I can help you, be glady to do so. Thanks so much. Are leading sponsor for the High Ed Marketer Podcast Zem, where students share stories and connecting exclusive college communities. Also by Kala solutions and education marketing and branding agency and finally by Think, patented, a marketing execution company combining print technology and personalization for higher engagement for colleges and universities. On behalf of Bart Kaylor, my co host. I'm troy singer. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple podcasts. We'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars. Do you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,.

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