The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode · 3 months ago

The 5 Steps of Storytelling at Notre Dame w/ Jim Small

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Storytelling is arguably the most powerful form of communication.

The art of crafting a story that creates a desire to do something is more straightforward than you’d think. Our guest today uses a five-step process, and you can, too.

In this episode, we interview Jim Small, Associate Vice President for Development -- Executive Director, Storytelling & Engagement Team at Notre Dame, about how he has pioneered storytelling to grow the university’s engagement.

We also chatted with Jim about:

- His secret story of convincing Notre Dame to commit to story

- The five steps to build a story

- Why he suggests talking with a student every week

Check out this related episode: Ep. 21 w/ Mary Barr.

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Higher Ed Marketer in your favorite podcast player.
 

You were listening to the Higher EdMarketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in highereducation. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to studentrecruitment, donut relations, marketing, trans new technologies and so much more.If you are looking for conversation centered around where the industry isgoing, this podcast is for you, let's get into the show, welcome to the high red marketerpodcast. My name is troy singer and, as always, I am here with my partner increation bar calor, where each week we both interview higher Ed marketers thatwe admire that we feel others in a community can benefit. From this weekwe had the pleasure of interviewing the associate vp of storytelling, anengagement for the university northerne, Jim Small, and, if you know anythingabout Jim, you know that he is known for his energetic and impactfulstorytelling yeah. It's been a great interview and I'm really excited toshare this with everyone. I think that he really has you know a story. Tellingis one of those things troy that I think that people think they understandand they and they know it when they feel it and they see it, but sometimesit's like well. What does that mean? And how do you do that and I think Jimhas kind of a really creative process and he's actually, you know, he'sorganized how he tells stories into five bullet points. I really like hismethodology and the way that he just is very logical in his thinking, and so Ithink, you're going to walk away with a really a lot of practical things thatyou can apply, no matter how big a school you are, don't don't beintimidated that we're talking to the University of noted me there's a lot ofreally practical things here and be sure to stick around to the very end,because there's a goodie that Jim offers, everybody that you want to hearabout well said Bart. Without further ado, let's bring in Jim, we like to welcome Jim Small AssociatedVice President of storytelling, an engagement at Northeden to the HigherEd market, podcast, Hello, Jim. I don't troy doing wonderful and we are reallyhappy that you can join us here on the podcast. In a previous conversation,both Bart- and I were just really impressed with both your background andhow utilize storytelling. Well, you know it's it's way overrated for myperspective here internally, but I want to thank you too, for having noted jointhis conversation. So thank you for that very good bark, Yeah Jim. I reallyappreciate time. I know you and I've met a couple times. It's differentconferences here in Indiana and had a chance to get to know each other alittle bit better, but I think one of the things that I really wanted to talkabout- and I think you said you know sometimes it's overrated. Sometimesit's not it's misunderstood, just what storytelling is and what the importanceis, and so maybe just tell us a little bit about. You know where how you'releveraging storytelling at the University of note dame and and kind ofhow you got into storytelling, because it's not I mean it's something that'sbeen around for Eons, but I think some, it's kind of been the marketing buzzword in the last five ten years, yea. Well, I'm to go back to being thirteenyears old in the state of Michigan and working at a golf course, and I met aguy named Bob Cane to work for Golf magazine and what I saw as a thirteenyear old was a guy that came in once a week with clients and he played golffor a living. That's what I saw so I decided to write that in there I wantedto be the publisher of golf magazines. Let set me out a path to become apublisher. If you will and- and I went off to college, I pay a littlebasketball, but I really have an advertising degree fromschool called Far State University and big rap is Michigan and there I startedmy first publication when I was a junior in college and that progressedto where I got my first interview after graduating. I got tired of PublishingCompany and, and was there for a couple of years and got hired anotherpublishing company H. I had my big break where I was on my way to Ibelieve, working for time. Ink On people magazine when I was interceptedby a big ad ad can dy tri called Campbellian, and they were starting astory telling division which no one knew about the time. I end up, takingthat job instead and is probably the best decision ever made my life,because I end up working with a lot of...

...huge brands and helping him tell theirstory, and it just led to a career for me of convincing people wasn't theirmarketing. It wasn't their advertising. That was the challenge. It was theirstory and we were last couple. I was involved with four Noer names: Covencalled story, room Wi that I created with three other guys and we became theworld's arts story tellers and we were the first guys and Medicin Avenue totell people it's not your advertised at your market, it your story, they'll, gous kind of cross side for a long time, but now all you see is are going totalk about their story, the story in the story, so we were kind of thepioneers of an phew. Well we're the first guys on the street in New Yorkpreaching this, and it's worked out well, and I've been at noted threethousand four hundred and seventy nine days. I keep track of that. So this isday three four. Seventy nine and the cut me along for a nice ride and spenta wonderful experience telling stories here. That's great and I obviously I'msure you were in this in the storytelling business before the allthe different channels of storytelling came about. You know what now peopleare constantly talking about. Tell your story through video. Tell your storythrough social media. All these different ways tell us a little bitabout how you're utilizing story telling. I know you told a storyearlier about the story boards at a at a high down or tail gating event thatthat's one way, maybe just kind of walk us through that, and maybe some of theother ways that you know those listening might be. You know inspiredto get their story out through different ways. Sure I think I thinkthe best way to start in to Er me to answer that question is probably towalk it to our process and how we tell stories- and we started this back inNew York and there's a five steps and I'm not very smart. So I make thingsvery simple. I work with people much smarter than me, which is great, butthe first step always is audience. We want to know who we're going to beengaging it. I want to know everything I can about them, so our teams taughtto learn stuff. One is first question to ask who's the audience. Who Am myengaging and learn? Everybody can the second step and is probably the mostimportant step, and it's what we call Walk Aways, and this is what we want.People to think feel do think feel do, and this is, if I ever write a book onmarketing, someday or story telling it'll be called think field. Do becausethat's what a market or astro teller does their job is to make. You thinksomething or feel something to drive you to do something. So we upfrontestablish what it is. We want someone to think or feel because Popol get anorder. Dame our job is is to try to convince someone that note names worthyof their gift. So that's that gift you know the giving part. So we have tolearn how to what people need to think what they need to feel. So we writethat down and that helps us drive everything else. That's step to stopthree as channels I want to know before we get started one of the ways we'regoing to deliver that story. Is it an email? Is it a an event? We even did aplay once where we used to play to tell a story: Isn't a video: Is it a filmjust list all those channels that we're going to use to reach that audiencethen the last? The fourth part, is what we call. What great looks like I wantto know at front again what a what a success. How do we define? That is thatwe need to raise a hundred dollars. Is it me we need to raise a billiondollars? What is that we write that down and then the last step is when westart thinking about the stories we need to tell so. The beauty in thisprocess is, I know who the audience is. I know what my job is a story till Ineed someone to think this or feel that to get them to do that, I know we'regoing to put it in these channels. I know I need to do x and then I startputting on the story. So you know when we're last met. We talked aboutprobably as my big break, and I think it was day like I don't know probablyday. Two hundred eleven for me or something a noter dame where Jo Ma comes down, Calle Gobin and heworks our plan giving area, and he says to me Jimmy Goes: We've got an eventcoming up and it's on a Saturday and Nortin football game note in versusMichigan and we're going to have you know another people, em Lef, first putthing: I question to ask us: okay, who's, the audience he s! Well, they'reolder people sixty to eighty years of age- and I still will tell me whereabout because all they love noter dame and they've they've been successful inlife enough, so that we think they could leave other name a gift in theirestate. So he tells me all about the audits, a great step to I said: what'sthe walk away, what do you want them to think field? Doing goes well,absolutely do is the right is to put us in there and state. So then we sent erown. What does the thinker feel? So? I...

...wrote a bunch of things on a whiteboard that I thought might that they might want to think or feel we send onone thought the thing was we could do this to for noter dame that was the job,so I wrote down. We could do this too for learning again walking through thisprocess, some through step to step three channels. He told me they'regoing to be in a big room and it was a mix Amingo event which I kind of hate,because I don't like walking into rooms where people- I don't know very well-and I've got to have small, talk him and talk with them. So I try to getpeople out. So I like to put things on the outside of the room, and I like toput stories on boards on the outside of the room where you can sort of turnyour back on. Our many have to worry about this. so much so he goes. Youknow. I think I like that. So that was our only channel, so we call himstoryboards on here. An Oredan they're two feet high three feet wide, and sohe goes yeah. Let's make storyboards our chanel perfect. I said what doesgreat look like. What's the success lit, I feel he goes well if I can raise amillion dollars in this event. That would be successful, so perfect, aright down a million dollars. So now I'm ready to think about stories. So Iknow that I've got to find five stories and that we had five boards wereputting up need to find five stories that make you think we could do thistoo for noter dame so there's what happens. We had a couple one storiesabout a family who grew up in the Boston, your husband, a wife, and theyhad two loves in their life. The University of noted am in the city ofBoston, so they decided in their state to set aside money from the Universityof Noder name to fund scholarships for students from the Boston or in a tenuniversity of Oter name. So we simply put this story on a board. So it's abeautiful two foot by three foot board. It's got a beautiful picture of theskyline of Boston and then it said a headline was a love for his home townand Alma Mater, and I wrote the copy you know Joe and Jane Dolmer and twoloves Er Life University of noter, Dame in the city of Boston. They set asidescholarship money for students to attend the Boston or through theuniverse. On Oderan, there are currently seven students on theirscholarship. That's all the board said that was one of the five stories. Sohere's what happens to Saturday morning honied net eighty ninety people in theroom very packed were having a good time to get drinks there. And you seethese stories on boards that night we beat Michigan and football, which isalways a good thing and then Monday morning, ten o'clock, this gentlemanthat I'm calling o mine comes calls me up. He says: Are you in your officeright now? I said sure amy goes, I've got to show you something and he comesdown with his laptop and he sits there and he goes read this. So I pull laptopin front of me and I go wow and it said dear greg had a great time to event.Saturday morning there was so many people in the room. We didn't get achance to say how to you, but we did see a story on a board and the nextparagraph it made us think we could do this too for notating word for wordwhat our walk away. Once next paragraph we'd like to set aside amillion dollars in our state from the University of note Dan, it was game over for me, it was day toeleven and it was the day that everyone in note name starts saying: yeah, maybethere's something to this walk away and storytelling and so on. So we know thatif we can get you to think a certain way or feel a certain way, we have agood chance of you win to make a gift to noter names. That's a secret story,Tom! That's great! That's such a powerful conversation, a powerfulstatement, and I think that the thing I like about your formula and the thing Ireally like about that story. You told about the event and the story. Boardsis that you don't have to be the university on Eter Dame to be able topull something off like that. I mean I mean I'm sure that a lot of listenersright now are listening are like Oh yeah it'd be great to be able to havethe type of football games that note dame has and the people who come therewill every school, and I don't care how small you are. You have people who canmake decent size gifts to you. They just need to understand. How can theydo that to or how they need to understand? What is that you want themto do, and I think that your process of those five steps is really a great wayfor them to do that and as well as you know, the story boards, it doesn't takemuch more than just you know a little bit of time and it could either be awhite border, could even be just a couple boards that you send over toFedex. Cant goes to get done, and I think that there's power in that- andit is a item that is on a lower shelf, that everybody should be able to reachexactly right Bart, because the beauty of this for a creative person is this awriter whatever it is up front. They...

...know what their job is. So my creativeteam, the writers, knew that their sole focus was. I need to create a storythat makes you think we could do this too for another day period. That wastheir job, so they knew when they got the assignment. They come back and wesit down and review what were the stories we've created and we're lookingthrough the lens of what we got to make him think one thing and it's a better discussion versus youknow. You see you get something presented to you to go. I don't likethat. What doesn't tell them anything right and that's really frustrating fora personal writer design or what have you. So this is a it's a simple, simpleprocess. Anybody can do it. We do it for everything. So when I sit and doanything if it's a power point presentation, if it's a speech whateverit is, I write down before I get started. What I want people to think orfeel after they've listened to me right and then it drives all my content inthat discussion right, I heven't did that today I was going to ask you: Whatdid you write down today today? I want, but I want I want o say you could dothis too right. That's what I want people to think, because you know youdon't have to have big budgets to do this. You know, and so that's something thatI've learned and and I had a year Western mission before I got to Notaras.I was at story road wide for eleven years and left my company to trysomething different and I got I got the Opton work at Western Michigan andWestern did not have very large budgets, but we raised a lot of money reallyfast because we started telling our story about and we found ways to reachindividuals and get them thinking, possibly but western Michigan and we'redoing the same thing in order Damon and it's simple. So anyone that's listeningto us now can do this, and the thing I like about it too, is that it appliesnot only to advancement and development. I mean, certainly it's successful inraising donations, but this would apply just as quickly to enrollment I mean ifyou've got perspective students for perspective families that areconsidering a school. It would work just as well on internal communicationsif you need to kind of have your faculty understand and feel somethingthat you are leading them to. Do I mean that's the power of story and the powerof emotion. I think that's sometimes that idea of coupling story and emotiontogether. I think too many schools kind of fall into this. This trap of wellwe're just going to tell the stats and and you'll lose it, because there'snothing that the story is the emotional part that moves from your head to yourheart. Would you agree with that? I agree with that and I've sat down withour admissions team talk about how we tell stories and the one thing thathappens and unless say it's not Notoli Y, it's another school who maybe ishaving trouble getting students to come to the university to enroll. Whathappens a lot of times is, and you think about audiences right. You've gotthe the student themselve as an audience, so that's the one audience asyou got to get them to think or feel something to say. Yes, I want to go towestern Michigan or note dame or or US or whatever the school is right, so,let's one on it, but let's get the parents too, and so you've got to figure out. What'sthe story, I tell that parents, because this here's, what happens a young manor a young woman will say I'm going to noter dame and they tell theirclassmates that also they go away. I just picked on her dame. Why would yougo there? Well, they need to have stories to say. Well, I didn't you knowthat this about Lord name or that about man say thing with parents, because theparents get in their social circles and they're, saying hey, where's littlejohnny going to school and goes why he's going now to day? Why did he pickStanford? Why? Why didn't he pick? You Know Harvard you know and you've got togive them the stories that they can defend. The pick fend the choice, so Idon't get talked out of it. So to me, that's why everyone needs to learn how to tellstories that could be told over and over again. They don't have to be hardthis at the impactful. They could be short and sweet because you just haveto get a people's stories and they can keep in their head and they can use todefend a decision or make a decision right. So those are the it's sopowerful. I mean it's. The most powerful way of communicating far as onconcern is telling you a great story well, Jim, on an additional question Ihave, and obviously all schools have...

...been impacted in the last. You know,eighteen months, with this this pandemic and with coved. How did thatimpact a lot of the ways you guys were telling your stores, because I meancertainly the example you gave of you know an event. I mean you weren't doinga lot of events. So how did you guys kind of address that? Because I mean alot of times, stories are kind of one to one personal events, those storyboards. How did you implement some changes in the midst of that? I wouldn't call it a panic situation,but it was all hands on deck because you know here we are things, are goinggreat and we're having a fantastic year raising money and we hit with thatcurveball right, and so I got a phone call from URP of universe relationslunain says: Hey, we aven't need a story telling us now and and you've gotto come up with a plan and how we're going to use virtual story telling sothe week after we sent students home, we started a the first thing we did waswe started a weekly, a live broadcast every Wednesday at noon, and I wentabout forty five minutes long and we brought in top executive universitythat we advanced to faculty members and so on. We did this every single weekright through middle December. Then we took the few weeks off for Christmasbreak, but then we back up again and we did all through the academic here. Thatwas the one thing we did. We also, we did some fun things because ourmarching band, we know one of our nodings on of the few schools- havebrought students back. So we had students on campus. You know we'remandor mask and we're all ten feet away kind of thing. It was crazy, but we hadstudents here and you know our marching band was here all of these singinggroups and stuff. So I reached out to our to the Paris group I said: Hey, wegot all these people on campus and no one's hearing them perform. Let's putout a show on a virtual show, so we created what we call the Norden MusicFestival. We went into the football stadium, we turned the lights on and weput these performance groups on the field and we lie broadcast a concertand went for about seven at night till about eleven at night four hours. Well,we had thirty, seven thousand people watch it live and over a hundredcountries around the world. It's crazy and that's one thing we did. We alsodid a cooking show called fighting Irish foodies and we did four of them.We would just you know: We had people come on chefs from our university, thethe culinary their food service people, and they taught us something how to dothat. We would send the Recibo in advance. People could go by this stuff,they could cook it along with his live with the show or they can watch it anddo it later. So you know we did all types of things. You know we just wehad. We had this focus that we can't see anyone in person. You know we noone's coming back for football games and it's awful for us. You know so sowe had to go out there. So we created a hundred and seventy one hours of liveprogram. That's great, be a youtube, so it's crazy, but that's we not but andwe're taking a lot of that Bart that we've done and we're taking hopefullyto this fall. When we got people back, we're still going to do a lot of it. Welearned a lot, but the big thing was: you know we kept communicating, we keptengage and we kept telling stories and we had so many people come back and sayyou know what I feel even more connected to University of Hardy, eventhough I can't come back for a football game, so we learned a lot and it wasn'teasy, but you know we're fortunate that we have great capabilities. We have agreat spray telling team, but we also have the sicle nd studios and we havethis broadcast platform. That's unbelievable, so wehave been great partners do, but we did a lot of this. We should look was alaptop and anybody could do so. That's why you I get back to anybody could dothis. Anybody could do these things, but you just have to have stories totell exactly- and I think that's one of the one of the keys, because I've puttogether a Ebook and some presentations on marketing on a shoe string budget,and I constantly I'm trying to remind people that okay, you don't have tohave a thirty thousand dollar broadcast studio to do really good things. Youhave to have a story, and then you have to have a couple pieces of technicaland most of it's on your phone already, and if you can do that- and you can youknow put together- you know a decent quality, authentic story, that's whereyour power is, and I love the fact too, that you got you guys are saying we dida lot of stuff during ovid that we're...

...not going to drop we're going tocontinue to augment it with everything else. We're going to do on a normal day,and I think that's really important that I want a lot of people tounderstand is that we all learned a lot of lessons on Ovid and as much as wewant to see the whole pandemic and the rear view mirror. We cannot not dothings that we learn during that time and continue on, because I mean a lotof schools had to go to virtual tours and virtual campus visits. There's noreason why that can't be an option. A lot of people have to go to these livebroadcasts, whether facebook live or youtube live. There's. No reason whyyou can't continue to do that, because, at the end of the day, all of ourconstituents have different preferences on the way that they like to consumemedia consume stories. Some of them want to be in an event in a room of ahundred people. Reading storyboards other people want to be in the privacyof their own home being able to look at it on their phone. We've got to deliverthose stories in the medium that they want exactly and we've en created aweekly football show that was widely accepted. So now we'redoing that again, you know- and so you know, there's just things that we didthat and you see is perfectly young and it was probably we've saved money doingsome of these things, so the beauty of is now is I look at our budgets forthis up on fiscal year we bring in some of the stuff we learned learned duringthe virtual age and we're going to save money, which is great. It was a crazyyear, but it was it was. It was a successful year for us because we founda way to engage our audiences and to tell stories, so it should never stopyeah and I love it. I just want to make a point about that too. I love the factthat there's different formats to sell the story I mean you've talked about,plays you've talked about videos, live streams, story, boards, email, allkinds of things, but then there's also just the idea of being able to tellthose stories. You know in the context of whether they are donating, whetherthey're in and rolling, there's always a chance to kind of do this, and it'sreally it's just a methodology that you can apply to any size or any shape ofinstitutions. So this is great. Jim You've shared a lot with us today and,if you've heard or heard the podcast at all, you know that I usually ask Hey:Is there anything else that could be a quick nugget that we can offer that ahigher ed marketer could implement immediately is? Is there anything thatyou could offer how about? If I give you three quick tips, all right, love,it tip number one and this something I've been doing since I've gotten tonother name. Is I try to meet with a student every week and I asked him. The first question Iask is take me from zero to eighteen and I want to learn about their wholelife leading up to coming to a noter day, and then I take it from there, butthat's something that is invaluable and this story. We get a lot of our storiesright. So I work with the admissions office. I work with financial aid and Itry to reach out- and I do this almost every week- so that's number to numberone meet with the student every week, they're your customer there, your greatsource for stories and they're, going to be your end product some day. So youknow that to me is tip number one tip number two is something we do here inAuto Day and I started this in New York. We do it, we call best practices andeveryone. That's on my team, whether they're, not a story telling team or myour annual giving team. I hate saying my team, but our story telling team andannual giving team is assigned either a market segment or an industry, and wedo this about every every other week we meet, but about every three or fourmonths. I switch up with these market segments are of these industries, butwhat I ask them to do is to come in and give me what's what I call the while,in the hall they sold a million products in twenty four hours, wow thatI want to know how they did it and then so they present, and it takes some fiveminutes. They do the homework. They come in and say: Apple Sold, a thousandapple watches in thirty eight seconds, well, Jeez how they do that and theytalk to us how many marketed that and then the next question I asked is: Howwould we do that in order day? So we had this going all the time ever hereof the week, everyone in our team, it's just best practice and it's a wait. Welearn it's. How we're looking wise for next that an order dame what's the nextthing we can do. Anyone could do this right. Look outside look outside HigherEd, look to industries and other groups...

...and find out what are the best practisare using to raise money, sell product whatever it is and find a way to use it.Your school to three is a leadership tip, and this is what I've learned isthat my job as a leader is to make myself available. So you need to do allyou can as a leader, if you have a team in high red you've got to find a way tobe available to your set. I don't do what they call one and one. I don'tbelieve in those I want people to want to meet with me not have to meet withme. There's a big difference here right. If you have to meet me with me, that'snot a good thing. Typically right, you know. So what I want is I just makemyself available. So I very have very few means. I do have some standingmadies and very few, but I just make myself available, and everyone on myteam doesn't matter of the Anne Getting Team Storto team. They know they couldjust come to. My Office and I'll stop what I do immediately every single timeand make myself available sose. That's just a quick tip that anybody can do so.Those are things that I'd be thinking about. If I was in high red marketingor Roman marking, or develop marketing to get better very powerful Jim, you have shared yourwisdom and with energy and vigor. Thank you very much for being against on theHigher Ed market or podcast. If someone would like to connect with you, whatwould be the best way for them to do so will probably be my email I'll give itto it's: Jim Dot, small at N S, N Nancy des and David Dot Edu, and if they doI'll make this promise, I will send them a pdf of what we call and I thinkI've got one here. It's our story telling an engagementplan, and this is how we tell the story and it's awesome. You know- and you cansteal things from this and you'll make it better for yourself. But this is adocument that we created for a last campaign on the boldly campaign andit's something we gave to our entire team. This is how we want to engageaudiences. So that's something that everyone have to share. Thank you.That's very impactful bar. Do you have any last minute thoughts or commentsbefore we close the show yeah? I just wanted to say Jim. Thishas been a wonderful conversation. Thank you for your time and sharing it,and I just wanted to just kind of bring a couple things to the to the surface.For everybody as they've listened to this episode just to kind of walk awayfrom one, I think Gimat it very clear that this is something that anybody cando. I mean again: I've worked with a lot of schools with twenty students toschools. You know the largest online public school in the nation. It doesn'tmatter your size, it doesn't matter your budget, it doesn't matter a lot ofthings. You can do this. You can do this type of story telling a lot ofwhat Jim talked about today can be, can be scaled down or scaled up to hever.You need to do that. So remember that I also love the fact that these lastthree tips he talked about interviewing the students, Mary Barr from BalstonUniversity, an episode twenty one also talked about the idea of her habit ofevery time during orientation, sitting down with students and families andasking them similar things. One to gather stories like Jim said, but alsoto kind of get a pulse on, what's going on at what? How are they making theirdecisions? Why did they end up where they are, and I think that so manypeople talk about? Well, we don't have the budget for focus groups, and wedon't have the budget for this. You have the time to do that, and I thinkJim and Mary both have talked about a couple ideas and how you can do thatwithout impacting your budget. It's just a matter of Jim's third tip therebeing available not only being available to your staff but beingavailable to learning about your students just by asking them, so Ithink that's really powerful and then finally, I think to that second tip inbetween the other ones that I've already talked about. I've been a bigbeliever because I came out of corporate much like Jim did. You know,I remember being in the Motorola War Room in one thousand, nine hundred andninety nine helping them figure out how to start explaining why people wouldwant to take a photo on their phone and why? What what's text messaging is? Andwe we did all these. These flash base things that that theircall center could use, and we put them up on the carrier websites on trying toget people to understand what these new...

...technologies with phones. That phoneswere moving from being phones into what we now know as smartphones- and Iremember being in that that war room and we were sitting in there. I was myagency- was the smallest one in there. I think Ogilvie mather and a couple ofthe huge agencies around there and- and they were kind of walking through this,but when I took away from is we were also doing a little bit of work andhigher at at that time, and I and I would go back to hire it, and I saidyou know: Motorola is getting ready to sell their phones to to the teenagemarket. This is what they're using and how they're thinking about it, and wewere able to do that and kind of apply that I mean I wasn't stealing anything,but it was the idea of we are trying to figure out the way that they're doingit and then applying it over to higher Ed, and I think the gims point of whatthe, how and the wow and the how. How did you wow apple did that? How didthey do it? Wow target did that. How did they do that? You can apply that toanybody and just kind of keep a pulse on popular culture on corporate onwhat's going on because the fact of the matter is, is targets going to spend aton of more money on marketing than any school will ever and if you can kind oflearn from them and kind of ride, their coat tails you're going to be much morefurther down the road than otherwise, and so I think that those are reallygreat tips and again, thank you, Jim, and it's been a great pleasure havingthis conversation thanks for having note dame on the show, we reallyappreciate it. Thank you. Thank you both for a wonderfulconversation. The hired market podcast is sponsored by Taylor, solutions ineducation, marketing and branding agency and by thing patented, amarketing execution, printing and mailing provider of hiered solutions onbehalf of Bart Cayler, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher EdMarketer to ensure that you never miss an episode subscribe to the show inyour favorite podcast player. If you are listening with Apple Podcast, we'dlove for you to leave a quick rating of the show, simply tap the number ofstars. You think the podcast deserves untilnext time. I.

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