The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode · 1 year ago

The 5 Steps of Storytelling at Notre Dame w/ Jim Small

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Storytelling is arguably the most powerful form of communication.

The art of crafting a story that creates a desire to do something is more straightforward than you’d think. Our guest today uses a five-step process, and you can, too.

In this episode, we interview Jim Small, Associate Vice President for Development -- Executive Director, Storytelling & Engagement Team at Notre Dame, about how he has pioneered storytelling to grow the university’s engagement.

We also chatted with Jim about:

- His secret story of convincing Notre Dame to commit to story

- The five steps to build a story

- Why he suggests talking with a student every week

Check out this related episode: Ep. 21 w/ Mary Barr.

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Higher Ed Marketer in your favorite podcast player.
 

You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, don't a relations, marketing, trends, new technologies and so much more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is from you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the hired marketer podcast. My name is troy singer and, as always, I'm here with my partnering creation, Bart Taylor, where each week we both interview hired marketers that we admire that we feel others in the community can benefit from. This week we had the pleasure of interviewing the associate VP of storytelling and engagement for the University Notre Dame, Jim Small, and if you know anything about Jim, you know that he is known for his energetic and impactful storytelling. Yeah, it's been a great interview and I'm really excited to share this with everyone. I think that he really has you know, a storytelling is one of those things, troy, that I think that people think they understand and they and they know it when they feel it and they see it, but sometimes it's like, well, what does that mean and how do you do that? And I think Jim has kind of a really creative process and he's actually, you know, he's organized how he tells stories into five bullet points. I really like his methodology and the way that he just is very logical in his thinking, and so I think you're going to walk away with a really a lot of practical things that you can apply no matter how big a school you are. Don't don't be intimidated at that. We're talking to the University of Notre Dame. There's a lot of really practical things here, and be sure to stick around to the very end because there's a goodie that Jim offers everybody that you want to hear about. Well said, Bart. Without further ado, let's bring in Jim. We like to welcome Jim Small, Associate Vice President of storytelling and engagement at Notre Dame, to the Higher Ed Marker podcast. Hello, Jim, I don't try doing wonderful and we are really happy that you can join us here on the podcast. In a previous conversation, both Bart and I were just really impressed with both your background and how utilize storytelling. Well, you know it's it's way overrated from my perspective here internally. But I want to thank you too for having Notre Dame joined this conversation. So thank you for that. Very Good Bart. Yeah, JEM I really appreciate I know you and I've met a couple times. It's a different conferences here in Indiana and had a chance to get to know each other a little bit better. But I think one of the things that I really wanted to talk about, and I think you said, you know, sometimes it's overrated, sometimes it's not. It's misunderstood just what storytelling is and what the importance is. And so maybe just tell us a little bit about, you know, where, how you're leveraging storytelling at the University of Notre Dame and and kind of how you got into storytelling, because it's not I mean it's something that's been around for Eons, but I think some it's kind of been the marketing buzzword in the last five ten years. Well, I'M gonna go back to being thirteen years old and the state of Michigan and working at a golf course and I met a guy named Bob Kane to work for Golf magazine and what I saw as a thirteen year old was a guy that came in once a week with clients and he played golf for a living. That's what I saw. So I decided right then and there I wanted to be the publisher of Golf Magazine. So let's let me on a path to become a publisher, if you will. And and I went off to college. I put a little basketball, but I I really have an advertising degree of from school called Fair State University and big rapids Michigan, and there I started my first publication when I was a junior in college and that progressed to where I got my first interview after graduating. I got hired of the Publishing Company and was there for a couple years. I got hired another publishing company that I have my big break, where I was on my way to, I believe, working for time ink on People magazine, when I was intercepted by a big Ad Agency and Detroit called Campbelly Wald and they were starting a storytelling division which no one knew about the time. I end up taking that job instead and as probably the best decision ever made my life, because I end up working with a lot of huge brands and helping them tell...

...their story and it just led to a career for me of convincing people wasn't their marketing or wasn't their advertising. That was the challenge. It was their story and we were less company. I was involved before Notre Dames Company called story worldwide that I created with three other guys and we became the world's large storytellers and we were the first guys and Medicine Avenue to tell people it's not your advertise, do your market and your story. They look as kind of cross I'd for a long time, but now all you see is I'm going to talk about their story, their story of the story. So we were kind of the pioneers of that, if you will. We're the first guys on the street in New York preaching this and it's worked out well and I've been at Notre Dame three thousand, four hundred and seventy nine days. I keep track of that. So this is day three four undred and seventy nine and they kept melong for a nice ride and spend a wonderful experience telling stories here. That's great and I obviously, I'm sure you were in this in the storytelling business before the all the different channels of storytelling came about. You know, now people are constantly talking about tell your story through video, tell your story through social media, all these different ways. Tell us a little bit about how you're utilizing storytelling. I know you told a story earlier about the story boards at a at a high down or tailgating event, that that's one way. Maybe just kind of walk us through that and maybe some of the other ways that that those listening might be, you know, inspired to get their story out through different ways. Sure, I think. I think the best way to start made answer that question is probably to walk it through our process and how we tell stories. And we started this back in New York and there's a five steps and I'm not very smart, so I make things very simple. I work with people much smarter than me, which is great. But the first step always is audience. We want to know who we're going to be engaging and I want to know everything I can about them. So our team's taught to learn stuff. One is first question. You ask WHO's the audience? Who am I engaging and learn everything we can. The second step, and it's probably the most important step, and so what we call walkaways, and this is what we want people to think, feel do. Think, feel, do, and this is if I ever write a book on marketing some day or storytelling, it'll be called think, feel do, because that's what a market, our storyteller does. Their job is to make you think something or feel something, to drive you to do something. So we upfront establish what it is we want someone to think or feel because typically Notre Dame, our job is to is to try to convince someone that Notre names worthy of their gift. So that's that gift, you know, the giving part. So we have to learn how to what people we need to think, what they need to feel. So we write that down and that helps us drive everything else. That's step to. Step three is channels. I want to know before we get started, what are the ways we're going to deliver that story. Is it an email? Is it an event? We even did a play once where we used to play to tell a story. Is it a video? Is it a film? Just list all those channels that we're going to use to reach out audience. Then the last the fourth part, is what we call what great looks like. I want to know off front again, what what what a success? How do we define that? Is it we need to raise a hundred dollars as or we need to raise a billion dollars? What is that? Write that down and then the last step is when we start thinking about the stories we need to tell. So the beauty of this process is I know who the audience is. I know what my job is as a storyteller. I need someone to think this or feel that to get them to do that. I know we're going to put it in these channels and I know I need to do us and then I start putting on the story. So you know, when we're last met, we talked about will probably is my big break and I think it was Dayli I don't know, probably day two hundred and eleven for me or something at Notre Dame, where a gentleman comes down, kyle the goodbye and he works our plan giving area and he says to me, Jimmy Goes, we've got an event coming up and it's on a Saturday of nording football game, nor dame versus Michigan, and we're going to have a number of people room swift. The first thing I question ask is, okay, who's the audience? He goes, well, they're older people, sixty to eighty years of age, and I said, will tell me more about because well, they love Notre Dame and they've they've been successful in life enough so that we think they could leave Notre Dame a gift in your estate. So he tells me all about the audience. A great step to I said, what's the walk away? What do you want them to think feel doing? Because well, obviously do is the write this to put us in there and state. So then we center on what is the thinker feel? So I...

...wrote a bunch of things on a whiteboard that I thought might that they might want to think or feel, and we centered on one thought, and the think was we could do this to for Notre Dame. That was the job. So I wrote down we could do this too, for Thurda. Again walking through this process. So I'm through step two, step three, channels. He told me they're going to be in a big room and it was all mix, the mingle event, which I kind of hate because I don't like walking in the rooms where people I don't know very well. I've got to have small talk with him and talk with him, so I try to get people in out. So I like to put things on the outside of the room, and let's put stories on boards on the outside of the room where you can sort of turn your back on humanity. Don't to worry about this so much. So he goes, you know, I think I like that. So that was our only channel. So we call them storyboards. Are here Notre Dame. Their two feet high, three feet wide, and so he goes, yeah, let's make storyboards. Are Channel Perfect. I so what does great look like? What's the success of life for you? He goes, well, if I can raise a million dollars in this event, that will be successful. So perfect. I write down a million dollars. So now I'm ready to think about stories. So I know that I've got to find five stories and that we had five boards were putting up. Need to find five stories that make you think we could do this too for Notre Dame. So here's what happens. We had crippled. One story is about a family who grew up in the Boston your husband and wife, and they had two loves in their life, the University of Notre Dame in the city of Boston. So they decided in their state, to set aside money for the University of Notre Dame to fund scholarships for students from the Boston area to ten the University of Notre Dame. So we simply put this story on a board. So it's a beautiful two foot by three foot board's got a beautiful picture of the skyline of Boston and then it said a headline was a love for his hometown at Alma Monitor, and I wrote the copy. You know, Joe and Jane Domer had two loves in their life, the University of Notre Dame the city of Boston. They set aside scholarship money for students to tend the Boston are at through the University of Notre Dame. There are currently seven students on their scholarship. That's all the board said. That was one of the five stories. So here's what happens to Saturday morning, ninety ninety eighty nine people in the room, very packed. We're having a good time to got drinks there and they see these stories on boards. That night we beat Michigan and football, which is always a good thing. And then Monday morning, ten a clock, this gentleman that I'm colleague of mine comes calls me up, he says, are you in your office right now? I said sure, en he goes, I've got to show you something, and he comes down with his laptop and he sits there and he goes read this. So I put laptop in front of me and I go wow, and it said, Dear Greg, had a great time the event Saturday morning. There are so many people in the room we didn't get a chance to say hi to you, but we did see a story on a board and the next paragraph it made us think we could do this to for Notre Dame, word for word. What our walk away once next paragraph we'd like to set us ode a million dollars in our state from the University of Notre Dame. It was game over for me and it was day to eleven and it was the day that everyone at Notre Dame start saying yeah, maybe there was something to this walkaways and storytelling and so on. So we know that if we can get you to think a certain way or feel a certain way, we have a good chance of you wand to make a gift to Notre Dame. So that's a secret storytime. That's great. That's such a powerful conversation, a powerful statement and I think that the thing I like about your formula and the thing I really like about that story you told about the event and the story boards, is that you don't have to be the University of Notre Dame to be able to pull something off like that. I mean, I mean I'm sure that a lot of listeners right now are listening or like Oh, yeah, I'd be great to be able to have the type of football games that Notre Dame has and the people who come there. Well, every school, and I don't care how small you are, you have people who can make decent size gifts to you. They just need to understand how can they do that too, or how they need to understand what is that you want them to do, and I think that your your process of those five steps is really a great way for them to do that. And as well as you know the storyboards, it doesn't take much more than just, you know, a little bit of time and it could even be a white boarder, could even be just couple boards that you send over to Fedex Kinko's to get done, and I think that there's power in that and it is a item that is on a lower shelf that everybody should be able to reach exactly right Bart, because the beauty of this for a creative person is this, a writer, whatever it is, up front they know what their job is.

So my creative team, the writers, knew that their soul focus was, I need to create a story that makes you think. We could do this too for Notre Dame period. That was our job. So they knew when they got the assignment. They come back and we sit down and review what we're these stories we've created, and we're looking through the lens of what we got to make them think one thing and it's a better discussion versus you see, you get something presented to you and go, I don't like that. What doesn't tell them anything right, and that's really frustrating for a personal writer, design or what have you. So this is a it's a simple, simple process. Anybody can do it. We do it for everything. So when I sit and do anything, if it's a powerpoint presentation, if it's a speech, whatever it is, I write down before I get started what I want people to think or feel after they've listened to me right, and then it drives all of my content in that discussion. Right. I haven't did that today. I was going to ask you. What did you write down today? Today I want what I want. I want to say you could do this, to write. That's what I want people to think because, you know, you don't have to have big budgets to do this, you know, and so that's something that I've learned. And and I had a year western Michigan before I get to Notre Dame, as I was at story worldwide for eleven years and left my company to try something different than I got. I got the up to to work at Western Michigan and Western did not have very large budgets, but we raised a lot of money really fast because we started telling our story better and we found ways to to reach individuals and get them thinking possibly about Western Michigan. And we're doing the same thing in Notre Dame and it's simple. So you know, anyone that's listening to us now can do this. And the thing I like about it too, is that it applies not only to advancement and development. I mean certainly it's successful in raising donations, but this would apply just as quickly to enrollment. I mean, if you've got perspective students or perspective families that are considering a school. It would work just as well on internal communications if you need to kind of have your faculty understand and feel something that you are leading them to do. I mean that's the power of story and the power of emotion. I think that's sometimes that idea of coupling story and emotion together. I think too many schools kind of fall into this, this trap of what we're just going to tell the stats and and you lose it because there's nothing that the story is the emotional part that moves from your head to your heart. Would you agree with that? I agree with that and I've sat down with our admissions team talk about how we tell stories. And the one thing that happens, and let's say it's not to dame, let's say it's another school who maybe is having trouble getting students to come to their university, to to enroll. What happens a lot of times is, and you think about audiences, right, you've got the student themselves as an audience. So that's the one audience that you've got to get them to think or feel something, to say, yes, I want to go to western Michigan or Notre Dame or or USC or whatever the school is right. So that's one audience. Below you got the parents too, and so you've got to figure out what's the story. I telled that parents, because this here's what happens. A young man or young woman will say I'm going to Notre Dame and they tell their classmates that and also they go white. You Pick Notre Dame. Why would you go there? Well, you they need to have stories to say, well, didn't you know that this about nore name or that about mauring safety with parents, because the parents get in their social circles and they're saying, hey, where's a little johnny going to school? He goes what, he's going to, Notre Dame. Why did he pick Stanford? Why didn't he pick, you know, Harvard? You know, and you've got to give them the stories that they can defend the pick, defend the choice so they don't get talked out of it. So to me, that's why everyone needs to learn how to tell stories that could be told over and over again. They don't have to be hard. This at the impactful. They could be short and sweet, because you just have to get a people stories that they can keep in their head and they can use to defend a decision or make a decision right. So those are there's. It's so powerful. I mean it's the most powerful way of communicating fire as I'm concerned. It is telling a great story. Well, Jim, one additional question I have, and obviously all schools have been impacted in the last eighteen months with this this pandemic...

...and with covid how did that impact a lot of the ways you guys were telling your stories, because I mean certainly the example you gave of, you know, an event mean you weren't doing a lot of events. So how did you guys kind of address that, because I mean a lot of times stories are kind of one to one personal events the storyboards. How did you implement some changes in the midst of that? I wouldn't call it a panic situation, but it was all hands on deck because, you know, here we are, things are going great and we're having a fantastic gear raising money and we hit with that curveball right. And so I get a phone call from our our VP of universe relations, Luna, and he says, Hey, we ever need a storytelling it's now and and you've got to come up with a plan and how we're going to use virtual storytelling. So the week after we sent students home, we started a the first thing we did was we start a weekly alive broadcast every Wednesday at noon and went about forty five minutes long, and we brought in top executive of the university and we've advanced to faculty members and so on. We did this every single week right through middle December. Then we took a few weeks off for the Christmas break, but then we back up again and we did all through the academic year. That was one thing we did. We also we did some fun things be because our marching band we went north. It was one of the few schools that brought students back. So we had students on campus. We're man and we were in mask and we're all ten feet awake on thing. It was crazy, but we had students here and, you know, our marching band was here, all of these singing groups and stuff. So I reached out to our student affairs group but said Hey, we got all these people on campus and no one's here in the perform let's put on a show on virtual show. So we created what we called the Nord and Music Festival. We went into their football stadium. We turned the lights on and we put these performance groups on the field and we live broadcast a concert and went from about seven at night till about eleven at night for hours. Well, we had thirty seven thousand people watch it live and over a hundred countries around the world. It's crazy, and that's one thing we did. We also did a cooking show called fighting Irish foodies, and we did for them. We would just, you know, we had people come on, our chefs from our university, the the culinary our food service people, and they taught us something how to do that. We would send the rest of you out in advanced people could go buy this stuff, they could cook it along with us live with the show, or they could watch it and do it later. So, you know, we did all type of things. You know, we just, you know, we hit we had this focus that we can't see anyone in person. You know, we no one's coming back for football games and it's awful for us, you know. So so we had to go out there. So we created a hundred and seventy one hours of live programming. That's great, be a youtube. So it's crazy, but that's what done. But and we're taking a lot of that Bart that we've done and work we're taking, hopefully to this fall when we got people back. We're still going to do a lot of it. We learned a lot, but the big thing was, you know, we kept communicating, we kept engage and kept telling stories and we had so many people come back and say, you know what, I feel even more connected to the University of nor even though I can't come back for football game. So we learned a lot and it was an easy but you know, we're fortunate that we have great capabilities. We have a break sproytelling team, but we also have this thing called Endi studios and we have this broadcast platform that's unbelievable. So we have great partner stuff. But we did a lot of this. We should the laptop and anybody could do so. That's why I get back to anybody could do this, anybody could do these things, but you just have to have stories to tell exactly, and I think that's one of the one of the keys, because I've put together on an Ebook and some presentations on marketing on a shoestring budget and I constantly am trying to remind people that, okay, you don't have to have a thirtyzero broadcast studio to do really good things. You have to have a story and you have to have a couple pieces of technical and most of it's on your phone already. And if you can do that and you can, you know, put together, you know, a decent, quality, authentic story, that's where your power is. And I love the fact, too, that you got you guys are saying we did a lot of stuff during covid that we're not going to drop. We're going to...

...continue to augment it with everything else we're going to do on a normal day, and I think that's really important. That I want a lot of people to understand is that we all learned a lot lessons on covid and, as much as we want to see the whole pandemic in the rearview mirror, we cannot not do things that we learned during that time and continue on. Because, I mean, a lot of schools had to go to virtual tours and virtual campus visits. There's no reason why that can't be an option. A lot of people had to go to these live broadcasts, whether facebook live or youtube live. There's no reason why you can't continue to do that because at the end of the day, all of our constituents have different preferences on the way that they like to consume media, consume stories. Some of them want to be in an event, in a room of a hundred people reading storyboards. Other people want to be in the privacy of their own home being able to look at it on their phone. We've got to deliver those stories in the medium that they want exactly, and we've created a weekly football show that was widely accepted. So now we're doing that again, you know, and so you know, there's just things that we did that and you see it perfectly, you know, and it's it was probably we've saved money doing some of these things. So the beauty of as a now is I look at our budgets for this up on fiscal year, we bring in some of the stuff we've learned during the virtual age and we're going to save money, which is great. It was a crazy year, but it was it was a successful year for us because we found a way to engage our audiences and to tell stories. So it should never stop. Yeah, and I love it. I just want to make a point about that too. I love the fact that there's different formats to tell the story and you've talked about plays, you've talked about videos, live streams, storyboards, email, all kinds of things. But then there's also just the idea of being able to tell those stories, you know, in the context of whether they are donating, whether they're in rope and rolling. There's always a chance to kind of do this and it's really it's just a methodology that you can apply to any size or any shape of institutions. This is great, Jim, you've shared a lot with this today and if you've heard of or heard the podcast at all, you know that I usually ask hey, is there anything else that could be a quick nugget that we can offer that a high end marketer could implement immediately? Is there? Is there anything that you could offer? How about if I give you three quick tips? All right, love it. Tip Number One, and this something I've been doing since I've gotten a Notre Dame, is I try to meet with a student every week and I asked him the first question I ask is take me from zero to eighteen, and I'm want to learn about the whole life leading up to coming to Notre Dame, and then I take it from there, but that's something that is invaluable and this is where we get a lot of our stories right. So I work with the admissions office, I work with financial aid and I try to reach out and I do this almost every week. So that's number tip number one. Meet with a student every week. There your customer, there your great source for stories and they're going to be your end products someday. So you know. That to me is tip number one. Tip Number two is something we do here, Notre Dame, and I started this in New York. We do it. We call it best practices, and everyone that's on my team, whether they're on a storytelling team or my our annual giving team. I hate saying my team, but our storytelling team and annual giving team is assigned either a market segment or an industry, and we do this about every every other week. We meet, but about every three or four months I switch up with these market segments are these industries. But what I asked them to do is to come in and give me what's what I call the while in the how they sold a million products in twenty four hours. Wow that, I want to know how they did it. And then so they present and it takes some five minutes. They do the homework, they come in and say apple sold a thousand apple watches in thirty eight seconds. Well, Jeez, how they do that? Then they talk to us how they marketed that, and then the next question I ask is, how would we do that in Notre Dame? So we have this going all the time, every of the week, everyone in our team, and it's just best practice and it's a way we learn. It's how we're looking last for next at Notre Dame. What's the next thing we could do? Anyone could do this right look outside, look outside higher ad look to the industries and other groups and find...

...out what are the best practices are using to raise money, sell product, whatever it is, and find a way to use it your school. Tip Three is a leadership tip, and this is what I've learned, is that my job as a leader is to make myself available. So you need to do all you can as a leader. If you have a team in high read, you've got to find a way to be available to yours, to I don't do what they called one on one. I don't believe in those. I want people to want to meet with me, not have to meet with me. There's a big difference. Are Right, if you have to meet me with me, that's not a good thing, typically, right. You know. So what I want is I just make myself available. So what I very have very few means. I do have some standing. Meetings are very few, but I just make myself available and everyone on my team doesn't matter. And you're getting team and the STORYTELLE team. They know they could just come to my office and I'll stop what I do immediately every single time and make myself available. So looser. That's just a quick tip that anybody can do. So those are things that I'd be thinking about if I I was in high reed marketing or enroll a marketing or developed marketing to get better. Very Powerful, Jim, you have shared your wisdom and with energy and bigger. Thank you very much for being a guest on the High Ed Marketer podcast. If someone would like to connect with you, what would be the best way for them to do so? We'll probably the my email. I'll give it to it's Jim dot small at end as a Nancy Das and David Dot Edu and if they do, I'll make this promise. I will send them a pdf of what we call, and I think I've got one here, it's our storytelling and engagement plan, and this is how we tell the story and it's awesome, you know, and you can steal things from this and you'll make it better for yourself, but this is a document that we created for our last campaign, the boldly campaign, and it's something we gave to our entire team. This is how we want to engage audiences. So that's something that everyone I could share. Thank you. That's very impactful. Bar Do you have any lastminute thoughts or comments before we close the show? wonderful conversation. Thank you for your time and sharing it, and I just wanted to just kind of bring a couple thanks to the surface for everybody as they've listened to this episode, just to kind of walk away from one. I think Jim made it very clear that this is something that anybody can do. I mean again, I've worked with a lot of schools with twenty students to schools, you know, largest online's public school in the nation. It doesn't matter your size, it doesn't matter your budget, it doesn't matter a lot of things. You can do this. You can do this type of storytelling. A lot of what Jim talked about today can be can be scaled down or scaled up to however you need to do that, so remember that. I also love the fact that these last three tips, he talked about interviewing the students. Mary Bar from Ball State University and Episode Twenty One also talked about the idea of her habit of every time during orientation, sitting down with students and families and asking them similar things. One to gather stories, like Jim said, but also to kind of get a pulse on what's going on. What what? How are they making their decisions? Why did they end up where they are? And I think that so many people talk about what we don't have the budget for focus groups and we don't have the budget for this. You have the time to do that and I think Jim and Mary both have talked about a couple ideas and how you can do that without impacting your budget. It's just a matter of Jim's third tip. They're being available, not only being available to your staff but being available to learning about your students just by asking them. So I think that's really powerful. And then, finally, I think to that second tip, in between the other ones that I've already talked about. I've been a big believer because I came out of corporate much like Jim. Did you know? I remember being in the motor Rolla War Room in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine helping them figure out how to start explaining why people would want to take a photo on their phone and why, what what's text messaging is, and we we did all these these flash based things that that their call center could use and we put them up on the carrier websites on trying to get people to understand what these new technologies with phones, that phones were moving from being phones into what...

...we now know as smartphones. And I remember being in that that war room, and we were sitting in there. I was my agency was the smallest one in there. I think Ogilvie and mather and a couple other huge agencies were in there and and they were kind of walking through this. But what I took away from is we were also doing a little bit of work and higher at at that time and I and I would go back to higher end and I'd said, you know, monor Rolla is getting ready to sell their phones to the teenage market. This is what they're using and how they're thinking about it, and we were able to do that and kind of apply that. I mean, I wasn't stealing anything, but it was the idea of we are trying to figure out the way that they're doing it and then applying it over to higher end and I think the gym's point of what the how and the the wow and the how. How did wow? Apple did that? How they do it? Wow, target did that. How did they do that? You can apply that to anybody and just kind of keep a pulse on popular culture, on corporate on what's going on, because the fact of the matter is is targets going to spend a ton of more money on marketing than any school will ever and if you can kind of learn from them and kind of ride their coat tails, you're going to be much more further down the road than otherwise, and so I think that those are really great tips and again, thank you, Jim, and it's been a great pleasure having this conversation. Thanks for having Notre Dame on the show. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you both for a wonderful conversation. The hired marketer podcast is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education marketing and branding agency and by think patented, a marketing, execution, printing and mailing provider of higher its solutions. On behalf of Bart Taylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,.

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