The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode · 1 month ago

Easy to Apply, Hard to Ask: Addressing Your School Website’s Focus

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Too often, colleges and universities put themselves on a pedestal on their school website’s homepage. Be it celebratory news stories, sporting events, or faculty profiles, higher ed institutions sometimes neglect the most important patrons of their website: prospective students.

Bob Johnson, Ph. D. , Founder of Bob Johnson Consulting, LLC , tells us why every school should focus their website on enrollment marketing and what things they need to stop obsessing over.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Missed personalization opportunities in lead conversions (8:34)
  • Three top information priorities for school website homepages (12:21)
  • Why everyone needs to follow up on self-reported data (25:24)  

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

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You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to this week's episode of the High Reed Marketer podcast. I'm Troy Singer partnering with Bart Kaylor, and each week we interview high reed marketers that we admire for the benefit and hopefully the betterment of the entire higher reed community. Our guest today is Bob Johnson from Johnson Consulting, and we talked to Bob, who has a wealth of knowledge and experience in higher reed marketing, about websites and calm flow and the improvement and making sure that they are working as optimized as possible. Bart, Yeah, Bob's a great guest, and I have known about Bob for many many years. I've admired his work and and he's really kind of a uh you know, kind of one of those uh you know, pillars in the higher ed marketing community. He's been doing the work for many, many years. I was first introduced to his work in the mid two thousands. He's obviously done a lot of research and it's very knowledgeable and just does an awesome job of sharing his wisdom. On today's show, here's our conversation with Bob Johnson. Bob, we are so excited to have you on our podcast and to get into your experience and what you're working on now. But we love starting our conversations with our guests by asking them if there's something that you've learned recently that you would think as interesting enough for the community to know. Something I just learned this morning was possible pathway because I don't know about it in detail yet. I was reading the blog newsletter from Terminal UH for the web people in Dublin, Ireland that have that work with a lot of higher education institutions all around the world, and they're concerned or they're talking to people in that blog letter about what's going to happen to higher education marketing online when Google Analytics no longer well not not just the change in Google Analytics, but when cookies aren't being used anymore. Cookies seem to be on the demise by the end of next year, so it's not like we have to fix things in a hurry. But things like retargeting advertising, which some people still think is really creepy, but a lot of higher education institutions use it, and some of them use it well and some of them not so well. Those things are going to be harder to do. So Terminal four was talking about a new approach to analytics and tracking what people do on your website called funnel Back, and before we end today, I'll give people a way to search and do what I do. I just signed up for the funnel Back newsletter h so I can get direct from them. They're working with universities in the UK and the u S. I'd honestly never heard of it before, but that's why I read other people's blog things, because other people no more than I do. And Terminal four was right on it. They mentioned a couple of universities, including University of Edinburgh, which has done a lot of work with top task research and really focusing the website on the needs of students who use the site. So as soon as I saw they had been a client of funnel Back, I said, then there must be something good about this. Creighton University has also either is or has been a client as well. Uh. One of the things tauted about it is that it will help you discover terrible con and not terrible but unused content on your website. And just about every higher education website suffers from an excess of building up content that's never...

...removed. My my colleague friend and partner in Dublin, Ireland, Jerry McGovern, has a phrase I've often used in conferences that websites always eat, they never poop. For the most part, no higher education website team is charged with the systematic reduction of unused content on the site. There's a couple of them out there that are, but that's pretty rare. And of course, the bigger and more bloated your website, the worst your search function works. And that's what funnel back is designed for. So that's what I that's the that's the new stuff I learned. I'm really interested in that kind of thing because most of my professional interests today are focused on making more effective marketing websites for better student recruitment, and so that's why I I jumped on this as soon as I saw it in the Terminal four blog. Bob. I'm assuming that most people know who you are within the higher ed marketing community, but I don't want to take that for granted. So please, if you could give us as quickly as possible and with all your expertise, I know it might take a little while, but give us a glimpse of your journey. And uh, I want to set the stage for the reason why there's very few people that we can have as a guest that can speak to higher ed marketing and websites like you. Well, I've been involved. I've been doing higher education marketing since oh, I'd say the mid nineteen eighties. I was involved with Tom Hayes and creating, you know, helping set up Tom was the initial founder and helping set up the Symposium for the Marketing of Higher Education just before it went over to the A m A. And Tom told me at the time he called me on the phone in the eighties because I was the only person he could find in higher read with the title vice president from marketing that I had at a college in Detroit at the time. So that led him to me. We've had a partnership of so it's ever since and I when it went over to the A m A. When the symposium went over to the A m A, I chaired that for about ten years, from the early nineties to the early two thousand odds. UH. During that time, I developed a higher ed marketing newsletter to promote the symposium and to collect subscribers. And I've been writing that ever since, uh since nine, and it's still gets subscribers. People leave, people arrive. I don't know what's bringing new ones in these days, but they still come, so it balances off. And UH, that's what I'm primarily doing. I call myself semi retired now. I'm not actively looking for new clients. I'm not looking for, you know, things to do at conferences. I did that for fifteen didn't have the thirty years, and I don't miss the airports, so uh, I still write that. I do a Link of the week every every week in between the newsletter. I pick a college or university website link that I think is particularly good in the higher education atmosphere marketing atmosphere. And I still as long as I have fun doing that, I'm gonna end doing things like what we're doing right here today. Then I'll keep doing that. Uh. I. I held university marketing positions older in the nineties until the year two thousand. In the year two thousand, I went to work with an agency in Albany, New York. I worked with them for six years. After six years, I went on my own as an independent consultant. I just got I just wanted to be on my own, and I thought I had enough recognition that that would work for a time, and it did so. From two thousand and six until just before the pandemic, I was actively involved in that, and then I kind of east into the semi retirement stage and still involved, not quite as active as before. Started a new project this week, though, and uh I'll tell you up front, and this new project is doing a competition review the client and the project person.

The project school, which I'm not at liberty to name right now, is only the second school that I've ever worked with or been a secret shopper at, that used the name of the academic program they asked me about when I filled out their inquiry form. They actually referred that on the first email response I got. And not doing that, I think is one of the major marketing mistakes that almost every college and university in the land makes they collect that information on their inquiry form, and most of them never referred to it, at least in the first couple of weeks of email inquiries. And this new client, by god, it was a forensic science program. That doesn't narrow it down too much. There's a lot of those in the country, and they mentioned forensic science that I that I was interested in that in the email. I've only had one of those ten years ago from a regional public university in Wisconsin, UH, where I said I was interested in pre med and I got an email back. I got two emails back in the first four one from the chair of the Biology department and one from the head of the pre Med committee, and that I regard as masterfull detailed, conversion oriented follow up marketing UH, which is an area where so many schools could do so much better work than they do now. Isn't that interesting, Bob? I mean, I've known of you for a very long time. I think we just recently met, but I've known of you for a very long time. And my first highered website was in my alma mater. Had heard that I was doing websites and asked me to be a part of theirs. And I got picked up by the Chronicle in other places, but I was aware of your work early two thousand's And it's funny, just as you tell that story about that secret shopping situation that you're in right now, that technology has been around for a while. Just the idea of variable data and personalization. I mean, it's it's not something that's you know, it was invented in two thousand nineteen or two thousand twenty. And I agree with with you. I mean, most of the most of the modern CRMs, most of the you know, a lot of the technology and websites can allow for that personalization. But it's and we all hear so many times that personalization is what gen z and and these these generations want to see, that's what makes them get excited about things. But it just seems like that's a that's a missing opportunity that a lot of schools, their marketing departments just aren't aren't grabbing onto. And in this case, the two other schools that are the competitors of the clients school, uh, neither one of them paid any attention to what I put down as a program of interest. When I filled out the form. They're they're busy trying to get me to visit campus. UH. A couple of days after I filled out the inquiry form, which I would regard as slightly premature, but whatever, neither one of them mentioned the the academic program that they asked me about. We will be right back after a word from our sponsor. Today's podcast is brought to you by our d O Education Solutions. Are DAO helps colleges and universities increase access to education while giving students and families financial peace of mind. Our dao's Loan Repayment Assistant Programs, known as l raps, help students with modest incomes repay their federal student parent plus in private loans. Are dao's l raps give students the confidence they need to enroll and are a win win for your institution. To learn more about our d O and see case studies from institutions like yours, visit ourdo dot org. That's a r d e O dot org. Welcome back. Let's rejoin the conversation right here on the higher ed marketer. Isn't it funny you mentioned that you know, trying to get them on campus, and it seems like so much in higher ed everyone is so eager to kind of get you to that next step of commitment. And I've often joked, and I don't remember if we talk about this in our pre interview, but I've often joked that, you...

...know, getting a person to your website that's just discovered who you are and building a relationship and you ask them to either visit now or apply now, it's like asking your spouse to marry you on the first date. It's it's so premature and there's so much more WOU that could go on before that. What do you think about that? I think that's absolutely right. Uh. I used to use the analogy and presentations about you know, the first date isn't the time to ask somebody to go to Paris with you? Probably, I mean, depending on how you're reading the first date. But usually you have to cultivate these things a little bit. Maybe you wait for the second, the third, the fourth time, or something like that. But yes, I agree, and Ti, you can jump into it, uh too quickly. I see still a lot of higher education websites that it's actually difficult to become an inquiry. It's easy to apply for admission on the as if people will do that on the furry first visit, and most schools just don't have the marketing prowess. If you will, the maybe that works for Harvard and Yale and so forth, or University of Michigan here where I am in Michigan, but it doesn't work for most schools. You've got to get move people along in the direction of why they should be doing that. Even inquiry form is kind of misleading. Uh. Most inquiry forms say to get more information, fill out the form, and an awful lot of potential students now want to get the information they want to get when they visit the website. There's a reason to get people to sign up, but you've got to give them more of a reason. You tell them what they're going to get. What's the benefit to them from filling out your inquiry form besides helping populate your database. And there are a few schools that do a pretty good job with that. I mean, I have a collection of schools that actually do a good job of telling you what you're going to get when you fill it out, and then repeating that when they get the online response form that pops up after you do the inquiry form on on the website, but too many of them just don't pay any attention to that. They just don't It's an opportunity for immediate contact after somebody fills out that form, and uh, it's not taken advantage of nearly as well as it should be. Obviously, we're talking about an inquiry form and the action that we want them to take when they come to the website. But that but you've done a lot of research in your career about the top tasks that that students, especially traditional undergrad students, are looking for when they arrive on your website. And we all know that the website is the number one influencer. I mean, that's that that's coming out in the data all the time, is that it is your number one choice to kind of get the relationship started. What are those top tasks in your research that you found that those prospective students are looking for when they arrive on the homepage. Well, let's put it in the context of the Yeah, the top two or three and not obsessed too much about which is number one and which is number two because they're both important. Academic program availability is still extremely high. It's always been high as long as we've been doing that research. People want to know whether or not you've got the program that they're interested in, and if they're already interested in one, and if they already know you have it because you know, uncle Charlie, our aunt Mary told him to, you know, look at Western Michigan University because they've got blank and blank. Then they want to get to your website and they want to get the hell off the website as fast as they can, or off the home page as fast as they can to get to the particular program that interest them. Uh. So that's that's a number. That's still number one or number two. What we actually found out, and this was with a university, uh, primarily oriented to adult students. We did a top tests. Are very surprised everyone involved, from the university to us that costs came out first. And this was pre two th eight. Costs have gone up much...

...higher since two thousand and eight, even among among traditional and adult students. So it was a surprise. I guess we did that research and about two thousand five or six or somewhere back there, and in effect they were saying, well, we want to know what it's gonna cost us, uh, before we go any further on the site. UH. So that's that's probably the number for many people. That's at least the number two issue right now. UH. A number three issue, particularly for adults, but also increasingly UH for younger students are out outcomes information. What what happens if I go to your school, take your major that interests me, and graduate, what happens next? And and that's an area where almost no schools really have substantive information about outcomes relate needed to a particular majors they offer at the school. That's difficult to compile. I've been told there are some schools, at least a couple of schools would do it, and that would be in a mark a competitive advantage for schools that had that would be a way to differentiate themselves from the majority of schools that don't. Most schools, what they put up on the website, UH is the percentage of the over they graduates who are either employed or in graduate school within six months after graduation. UH. I don't. I have never seen a college or university that does not have that information to put up. And that isn't really what people are looking for when it comes to outcomes. UH, it's not a differentiator, but where they're really lacking most schools still is an easy way for people to get an estimate of what it will cost them personally. Bart you mentioned personalization. Uh, how can I find out how can I get an estimate doesn't have to be the final word, but how can I get an early estimate in the conversion process and the recruitment process of what it's going to cost me to go to your school without having to fill out the FAFSA, without having to fill out a pre FAFTSA or anything like that. Would you please tell me give me an idea what it's gonna cost and and my favorite source for that I think we mentioned last week is, uh the my Intuition Format, which is you know, used by several dozen schools, mostly private, uh, but some public. In Massachusetts, three or four parts of the public university system are using it now. And a student can go on there and fill out seven steps. Seven steps is all they need, and they get an estimate back from the particular school it's using it of what they are a package is gonna look like a more important you know, what is the net cost to them? Uh? So I would encourage I didn't just learn about this this week. But I would certainly encourage anyone listening to at least check that out. I think it's my intuition. Uh and and go and look and see what it's all about. Was invented by a professor at Wellesley uh an economics professor years and years and years ago. It wouldn't still be working there if it didn't work. Well. They still connect to the s the FAFSA, which is logical. You know, if they like what they see there, then they'll go do something else. But so those three things academic programs cost to me, uh not sticker price, because we know that's what scares everybody away. So we've got to get past the sticker price. My intuition is a easy way to get past the sticker price, and then the outcomes. Uh Now, if your residential student, and I'll pass it back to you, folks. Residential student, obviously, at some point you're gonna want to learn what it's like to live and experience on the ambush. And that's when you're...

...gonna want to go visit and do all those kinds of things about the dorms and so forth. Yeah, and a lot of that what you just said there a lot of that should also be kind of intuitive in the way that the design to layout, the photography, the videos are presenting that. Um, you know, students don't want to read it. They want to be able to experience that. But I think those are great points, Bob, those those three elements, and I think it's interesting, um you know, because I think one of the one of the challenges that people don't realize is our friends Google have created these knowledge panels for every university UH in the in North America, and basically they've they've indicated the fact they're just pulling at least the United States, pulling iPads data and giving you know, churning out the graduation rates, the um the average cost of attendance after after UM, after discounts, so that data is out there even before the students are getting to your website. And so I love your point of sites like my Intuition, sites like you know, being able to put the informationation about tuition and costs up front and clear because we know students are looking at that, parents are looking at that more than ever before. So Bob, these are really great points, and I think that I think those are really really good things. One thing I did want to kind of tease out a little bit on that. UM Bob is also just this idea of help me understand a little bit. When you look at I mean you've you've looked at this for many years, the idea of navigation. UM. I was looking at a site the other day and and somebody asked me to review it, and I think I counted up fifty seven unique links on the homepage. Uh, you know, and it wasn't a long, drawn out long homepage. It was a pretty short homepage. Help me understand. Especially, one of the big debates I hear a lot is the idea of audience centric navigation. So I have to identify in my undergrad and my adult and my degree completion and my graduate and my online versus more of a more of a functional type of navigation where you know, I've got about, I've got an academic, I've got admissions, I've got you athletics. Help me understand what your what your research has shown, and your your expertise. Well, the first point I guess I would make is that the top the top tasks don't differ that much based on type of student visiting the site. So I've had I've had clients who UH doing the research, they insist on breaking down the results from graduate students, for instance, versus undergraduate students. Uh. There are certainly differences among those groups, but when they first come to the website, they're remarkably similar. They want to know if you have the program, they want to know what it's gonna cost, and they want to know what's gonna you know, what's the benefit to them if they finished the program. So I think the variation on the audience centric is not to obsess over the eighteen year olds are dramatically different than the thirty year roles. They're not with respect to the task they want to do when they come to the site. Actually, the you know, the new client right now actually does a remarkably good job. I mean they have the pathway that the only thing you see when the website, when the homepage opens is the websites to the academic programs and then a differentiation for online programs so you can quickly get into those. And I've seen recent research, by the way, that shows that their high school level, you know, people graduating from high school are more interested in hybrid or online programs than they've been before. And that you can call out a benefit or not of the pandemic results. Right, but UH, schools who made an investment in online education during the pandemic. Uh, we need more research on this, but if the initial research is accurate, UH, they're gonna reap the rewards of today's younger students being more interested in that than they were before. And so...

...this is the time to to, you know, to really work on that. So audience is important. I think the first decision the school has to make is the primary purpose of the website is to recruit students, and the homepage has to be focused on that. We've never done a top task survey where, for instance, I remember this is people coming to the site for the first time, but this is a new students uh, where news stories didn't rank as close to the bottom of the task list as you could possibly get the and and let me let me say this for people, A typical top test survey would have been about a d potential tasks by the time the prep work is done. And so it would always include alumni notes, you know, alumni content. It would include news stories because you know, no school doesn't want to test for that. Uh. News stories always always always near the bottom of that list. It's a tiny task, a very tiny task for most potential students. So what I tell schools, you know, you don't want to rage a holy war within your institution about getting them off the page necessarily they don't need to be there for student recruitment, but at least put them at the bottom of the page. Don't make it the first or second thing. It's usually not the first, but it's frequently the second of the third thing on a home page. Um, put them down the bottom. If you've got to have them there, put them down to bottom someplace where they're out of the way of the potential students. Because unless there's been a dramatic change in the last three years, it's just not high on the list of what new students want to see. We already talked about what they want to see, and that just doesn't That just didn't come up. The other one that isn't as high for most schools as a lot of people think it is is sports. Sports is kind of a mid level thing. Unless you're interested in playing a particular sport, that's a little different. But if you're not planning to go to school to play a particular sport sports has never ranked particularly high. And I guess the mantra I just repeat what I said earlier. For the people who do start on a home page, not everybody does by any means. The purpose of using the home page is to get off it as quickly as possible to something else they want to see. Uh. Thank god, we're past the stage of carousels, where people thought somebody might stay on the homepage and patiently wait or flop themselves through eight different carousels at the top of the page. And then God bless the people that not tre Dame many years ago now did research on that and discovered that something like eight five of the people who came to their homepage never saw anything except the first piece of the carousel that was at the top, because they got off they went someplace else. In addition to the work that you do with websites and optimizing the function of them, you also do a lot of work with optimized enrollment yield strategy and would like to talk to you about that. And you had mentioned before that you do secret shopping exercises and you have a weekly newsletter that reports on what you find. Could we start the conversation out there. Well, sure, you know, I think one of the there are schools that spend a certain amount of time, you know, desperately seeking new potential student audiences at various places around the country, usually distant from their own home or often, I don't want to say usually, but often distance from their home location as a way of solving an enrollment problem. I think that's okay if you very carefully do it after you first really said, I've maximized everything I think I can do to convert the people who are coming to me now, sometimes through buying search names, sometimes through you know, just...

...a reference from again, you know, Uncle Charlie or Aunt Mary. Most people, the majority of students going to college, we all know they're gonna go fairly close to home. They're not going to travel very far. It's the really high end academic and economic students that tend to travel more than others. Your average typical student is gonna stay fairly close to home. You can look at the geographic spread of students in Michigan, for instance, of every regional university and guess what most of them Most of them come from within a geographic distance of that particular regional university, although we have a problem with those in the state right now, and so look at the conversion. So that's where I would come back to, how are you first responding to people in text and email and what are you talking to them about. You've really got to know as much as possible about them. If all you've got is the inquiry form, pay attention to it and use the academic program if you've bought their name. If it's a self reported a CT or college board score, the student went to take the test and they sent you the score, you should be reading the information you get from that very carefully, because if you're serious about starting a personal relationship, there's incredible information that direct market is would die for in there about what the students tell you about their college aspirations, what kind of help they need, what they expect to get. I will confess to not having checked the a C T Form in four years now, but up until that point they were actually doing something that the college Board was not on the S A T. They were asking the students their degree of interest in a particular major. And one of the things I learned, at least all during the nineteen nineties was that students who said they were seriously interested in mechanical engineering, for instance, converted at a far higher rate than people who were just casually interested. They had three levels of interest to pick from, and if they picked the top one, and they had a good academic profile, and you could beg a mechanical engineering professor to call them on the phone, which was difficult to do, but if you presented them with the right profile of the right student, they would actually do it. But what we had to make sure there, of course, was that they were when the when the student picked up the phone and somebody said on professor so and so, they would react to it because they were coming from the same major, because they were seriously interested in the major. So the bottom line, I think here is pace most serious attention to self reported inquiries that are coming and are you doing everything you can to maximize the conversion of those students. Those students are yours to lose, and this self reporting their information to a handful of schools. You might be number one, you might be number three. If you're number three, you might become number one if you follow up with those people in a way that number one isn't doing. I love the fact too, that you're really focusing on again using the data that that we already have, so that you know that self reported data through the College Board Information this and a c T. It's the self reported data that they put on the inquiry form. And even to the point we we did this with a recent school last year. Was one of the incentives that we gave students to engage them deeper even in the in the inquiry funnel was letting them take a quiz and it was a fun quiz, and it was kind of a silly quiz. You know what's your favorite food to eat when you study? Or you know what kind of music do you like to listen to when you study? But what we did is we took that then and then pushed back very personalized messages to not only the students, but to mom and dad and so was like, hey, we were really excited they learned that Bob loves...

...eating nachos listening to country music when he studies. Who would have thought, let us tell you about the you know, engineering program at x y Z University. Being able to do that is going to generate conversations with the parents and the students. It's going to be able to generate interests because all of a sudden we we heard them. That's one of the things we know about gen Z is they want to be heard. They want to be listened to, and so um, I love the idea, Bob, that you're saying is really especially when you're looking at yield strategies, you know, where in the funnel can we start inserting these types of messaging that's going to not only impact the students but also parents. With more schools doing test optional, maybe they'll start to see a reduction in this self reported category of people. But there I suspect most schools are still getting a lot of those. Uh. You know. One of the more surprising things I heard was an A C T person in the uh oh mid let's say two thousand five, and he walked into the A c T Enrollment planners conference when it was still in Chicago. Before A C T went Never mind what they went to, but uh, good conference back then. I have been recently, and what he said was what you people were doing, You're he said two things. One year over buying our names. You're not targeting them specifically enough. And that's absolutely correct, and many schools still do that. But the other thing he said was we found out that at least half of the colleges and universities that get self reported a c T scores put those into their general inquiry full pool and don't give them any special attention whatsoever. They become just like the person who signed up at a high school fair or or you know, or something like that. When he said these should be your highest converting prospects of anybody, you've probably never heard of them, and for some reason they sent you their test score and and all this other information we talked about earlier, and uh Steve who was giving the presentation then when he was still at a c T and he said, we're astounded by this, and he said, you folks are doing this all wrong. The value here is make these your priority group of inquiries that you want to follow with. And that information was good, you know, fifteen sixteen years ago. I hope there's nobody out there still doing that, but if there is, you need to move move past that immediately. And that's what I mean by making sure you're maximizing everything you can do in the early conversion stage before you start trying to mind for new gold in areas far removed from your campus, because that's just a very very difficult thing to do. Thank you very much for everything that you've shared today. Bob would like to ask you if you could offer one additional thought or idea that someone hearing it could be implemented right away. What would that thought or idea, that piece of advice be. I would actually go back to what I just mentioned. If you're not already doing something special with those self reported test scores that many people are still sending you even in this test optional era, that's something that you could change immediately and it would begin to reap new rewards. I know that because we used to. We I mean I used to when I was working at a university. We tracked that stuff like crazy, and the single highest group of enrolling people that we got was self reported people. And it was hands down, it was far away from anything else. Way above. You know the apps that came back, uh when a councilor went out to a cow was working at a Catholic university, went out to a Catholic high school and they had free app day, you know, and the counselor's end, everybody down to sign up. And those things didn't...

...convert at hardly at all. Thank you, Bob. For those who would like to contact you, what is the best way for someone to reach you or how should they go about to do so? I would just google Bob Johnson Consulting dot com and you'll you'll get there, and it's very easy to sign up for my newsletter and my link of the Weeks from Bob Johnson Consulting dot com. I'm not actively soliciting new clients these days, although I am taking occasional work from people I've known for years and years and who have been newsletter subscribers. So that's what I still do regularly, the monthly newsletter, the weekly Links of the Weeks. I love to have people join me there and build up the subscriber base. Thank you, Bob Bart. Do you have any closing thoughts that you would like to share? Yeah? I do. This has been a great conversation. I've really appreciated so much of what Bob has talked about. I really liked the research so that he talked about the top of the of the show with the top tasks, and you might go back and re listen to some of that, because I think those are some really clear things that you need to take a look at you know, have an honest look at your website and make sure that you are you know, providing easy access and easy information to those tasks that students are looking for. And I really also appreciated, you know, his comment, um that he talked about just making sure your website is enrollment focused. That's something if you're a regular listener here on the podcast you've heard me talk a lot about, is you know, just the importance of of enrollment focused websites. Um, you know, content that's gonna get you know, answering the questions that that prospective students and influencers have, and then you know, ways to generate you know, people to get to that content into your website. So those are some really good things. And and and and I really also appreciated some of those lower level tasks that he talked about, which you know ended up being news and maybe sometimes athletics, depending on who you are, that that we really sometimes put higher than what they need to be. And then only I really liked, um, you know, just this whole point of your gathering data, whether it's self reported through you know, as a students sharing their test scores with you, or if it's an inquiry form that you've collected some data. Use that data in your personalization and your comflow, in your in your emails, in the way that you communicate with your students. I really thought that was a lot of wisdom in that as well, So Bob, thanks again so much for joining us today. It's been quite a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Been a fun time. The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Kaylor Solutions and Education marketing and branding agency and by Ring Digital, providing significant lifts and yield by following your list with precisely targeted ads, and by Thing Patented, a marketing execution company combining direct mail and unique digital stacks for higher ed outreach success. On behalf of Bart Kaylor my co host, I'm Troy Singer. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to The Higher ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with Apple Podcasts, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,.

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