The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode 19 · 1 year ago

Finding Unique Identifiers: Marketing & Small Colleges w/ Dan Sanchez

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

With so many competing small colleges, it’s important to highlight what makes a specific college special. Whether it be ocean front property, close to the mountains, or offering a special major, the unique characteristics can make all the difference.

Dan Sanchez, Director of Audience Growth at SweetFish Media and formerly from Bethany Global University, talks about his past and current successes within marketing.

What we talked about:

- Specific Student Targeting Within Bethany Global University

- Marketing Operations on a Budget

- Dan’s Journey Into Marketing

- Success Advice for Small Colleges

Check out the resources below for more information:

- https://justdisciple.com/

- https://www.youtube.com/c/incomeschool


To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.  

You were listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High Reed Marketer podcast, where we have conversations with higher reed professionals that we admire to learn from for you and for us. I'm Roye singer and I'm here with Bart Taylor and we get to interview one of the people that we follow on Linkedin that were so impressed. He works both in the BEDB space but also in the higher marketer space. So Bart, tell everyone a little bit about Dan Chez, Dan Santiz. Yeah, so Dan Sanchez is is somebody that I met recently through a through another person, and he he does go by the Hashtag Dan chazz on on Linkedin and he's a really fascinating guy. He's he made a big impact for a very small school that I'm aware of. Two Small Bible College called Bethany Global University up in the Minneapolis and and then I later learned that he also did be to be marketing through a podcast and actually, full transparency, the company he's with, sweet fish media, produces the highered marketer podcast for us, and so we've been partners with them since late last year, and so it's been great to kind of get to know Dan, but also to kind of know that origin story of the impact that he made at a very small college and how the the incredible growth that he was able to do through a lot of marketing on small budgets. And so a lot of what we'll talk about today is you know what that looked like and how that came about. He is one of the most interesting follows that you can have on Linkedin and we're so excited to have a conversation with...

...him. So instead of just talking about how good he is, let's bring him into the conversation. Please help me welcome Dan Sanchez, director of audience growth with sweet fish media and also previously with Bethley Global University, to the Higher Ed Marketer podcast. Dan, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me on the show. Our pleasure. If you could give us a little bit about your background and what you currently do to help marketers like us, both outside of Higher Ed but within the be tob space as well, certainly so. Currently I am the director of audience growth for a sweet fish media and it's a company focused on helping be to be brands produced podcasts. I'll often just meet with a lot of customers and talk about how to grow a podcast audience specifically. But before that I was working at a higher education institution called Bethany Global University, where I was the marketing director for about six years, and I started as a marketing department of one and grew. We together we are able to grow, and it's not just me, as always more more than just one person, but mean the admissions team. You know. We're able to triple the enrollment of the university in a and a short amount of time and a department grew from me to a department of about twenty four to twenty five people. Wow. You know, I thought I knew you and I follow you and I've had conversations, but I didn't realize that you had the growth at Bethne international like you did. So thank you for sharing that and I must say that Bart and I utilize sweet fish media to produce this podcast. So we we know your dynamics and we want to share it with our other brethren and Higher Ed Marketing. Bart. Yeah, I appreciate you being here, Dan, and I just wanted to I'm glad, Troy, you kind of made the transparency for everybody that we do...

...work with sweet fish media. But I think the reason that we are working with sweetfish is kind of an interesting story, which brings us back to Bethny global. I do a lot of work with small Bible Colleges and small faith based institutions and the director of admissions can fear at Bethany Global University and I have been connected and we've attended several conferences to other and have gotten to know each other pretty well through Linkedin and and I know Ken has a really good friend of yours, Dan, and that's really how the introduction happened, is that as I was talking to Ken about some of his marketing and what was going on at Bgu, he kind of talked about some of the success that you guys have had together when you were at b Gu together, and and when I looked you up and saw that you were with sweetish media, now and I started looking into sweetish media and I saw that, well, it's podcast. That's pretty cool, and I think one thing led to another and here we are on episode, you know, Twenty eight or whatever of our podcast, and so so. But I wanted everybody on those on the show to understand that it kind of came out of Higher Ed and then kind of went to the podcasting. Now we're coming full circle, and so it's it's really great to be able to kind of talk about, you know, now that you and I have a relationship through sweetfish, to be able to talk about what you did at Bgu, because I do think that made such a impact and you know some of the stats that you just talked about. Obviously it's not a it's not one person that does it. It's and depending on where people are, there's credit for a lot of people. There's also, you know, divine intervention many times on these campuses, and so it I think it's important to kind of talk about that. But one of the things I wanted to talk about was just where did you start with? I mean you come on, you come on campus, you know, six, seven years ago, I don't know how long it was when you arrived, but, you know, most very small schools. And just to kind of put it in context, I mean what's the what's the enrollment at Bgu? I think it's important for people to understand it's currently at about three sixty, two hundred and seventy. Okay, now, that's always kind of going up and down. Yeah, yeah, and that's pretty typical. That's that's pretty typical of what I would consider small Bible colleges. I mean it's a very specific,...

...very specific part of Christian higher education, part of a higher education in general, but that's a that's a that's a typical size of some of these smaller schools and I think sometimes when you look at that, and I know that we've talked to people from purdue and University of Kentucky, and this is a different type of podcast today, because, I mean it's one thing when you have a student body of fifty fivezero people. It's another thing when you have a student body of three hundred and sixty. And so the challenges that come with going in scale down obviously comes with the know how much money you have to spend and I know a lot of people get very frustrated, whether you're a whether you're a marketing department at a large school or Marketing Department at Small School. I so many times here. Boy, if we just had a little bit more money, we could do so much more, but you didn't have just a little bit more money. So tell us kind of what that was about, Dan, and how how that kind of informed you and what you did about that, because obviously you didn't just sit by and say, Oh, woe is me. I'm willing to share as many details and numbers as I could possibly remember. I actually was working at an agency that I wasn't really happy and when can the guy you'd mentioned was work, he'd got put in charge of marketing and admissions because he's kind of an operations get they're like hey, can you run a call center before? We just laid off the admissions guy year in charge now, and he's like okay, but he's kind of a go get it kind of person. So he calls one of the closest, one of the closer friends he has that he knows nose marketing. And that was me. But I was twenty six, like I wasn't at old, you know, I was kind of like just starting in my career, but I was doing well in a marketing agency and I just had just been inquired by another agency that was a shopper marketing agency, which is like the kind of stuff you do to sell more package consumer goods at like Walmartin grocery stores and stuff. Not My favorite thing, the direction that was heading. So naturally a phone call turned to, you know, advice, turned to paid consulting, turned to freelance, turned to lots of freelance...

...and then I was like okay, I think, I think I'd like to work there full time. So I had such a good time. So actually did the whole website for them and a little bit of branding work. Not a lot, but it's just getting cleaning things up and helping them get back on track, running some ad words, and then I came on full time. The budget at the time was probably, it's going to think, somewhere around eighty to ninety thousand dollars and most of that went to Webber, which is like a poor schools waited like outsource financial aid. I think about half of it with the Webber. So there's not much left considering that. And that's not including salaries, that's just including budget. But then you have opera. Like saw operational costs in their printing, brochures and advertising. I think my advertising budget was of Thirtyzero when I first started, which just isn't a big budget for a school. It is tiny, but they only had an incoming class the year before at a forty four students, which is like so small and even for an Abah school that's like low. That's like we're not accredited yet, we're just starting in the accreditation process and Abach he's like, we don't know if we want to give you accreditation because your enrollments not looking good. They're like yeah, but if we get accredited enrollment will improve. They're like it's like a chicken in the egg problem, right. But that was my task I came in. But I also saw an opportunity from the outside, because they didn't know it, but they actually were sitting on a really good position because they're a school that was highly focused on just one degree jet and they only trained Christian missionaries and they had the way of doing it that was kind of unique and I knew enough for my like working at other Christian nonprofits and having that kind of a background, that there's there's at least a few thousand people that are thinking about becoming in a that are an aspiring missionary, like they want to figure out how to get to the mission field. I also knew that there's not really a clear path to get there. Like how does one become a missionary? Exactly, like even if you're listening to this and you're you're you're not a Christian, you're not in that camp, like how would you like how do you think people get there? Like...

...do they go to college? Do they just go to the contact their pastor like, what's the steps for that? So I knew there would be a market for it. They actually saw it at the time. Time is it was too limited, right, and that's how a lot of small schools feel like, Oh, if only we had more degree programs, we would attract a larger audience. Actually feel like it's the opposite. By being more focused, you can actually create more momentum and instead of just focusing sometimes, in Bethany's case, instead of just focusing regionally, I went nationally because I knew I could just attap try to attract a very specific kind of person. So, with a small budget, we actually focused at first on just really like not branding not even like large strategy stuff. was just trying to craft the right value proposition, trying to get the right message in front of just the right person, which for us, for the size of our budget and the kind of the so it's such a niche type of person you're trying to look for. The only two meetings we could really find them on, and it's still kind of a struggle to this day, and I'll could talk about that later, was Google ad words, people searching for it. Luckily there was some search volume for this. And facebook. We actually got really lucky that right about the time I was considering facebook adds is right when they started putting ads in the new speed and we took advantage that summer. Like it was only a few months after they first started doing that, and that's when facebook ads really started to go crazy. We split tested things, we use lots of creative we try to hone it in. Run people to a landing page, get them to request a brochure and then, slowly but surely, we kind of built out the process for how to follow up with them in order to get them to apply and walk the rest of the way down the admissions funnel. But it was a really simple step. You're talking one landing page and digital ads and then just trying to craft the message right and trying to find the right person. The real secret sauce, though, was that they had a really clear mission and focus for the school and it was easy to tie that focus to the right kind of person who had a very strong need...

...for that kind of thing that wasn't well represented elsewhere, right. So that was the advantage of Bethany and I I knew it coming in that all I had to do is kind of like dusted off and like figure out how to get it in front of the right people. Not all colleges have, I would say, have it that easy. It's not like it was easy. It took work, but really clearer path. Yeah, but I do think it's important because I constantly tell people this because when I asked them, well, tell me what's unique about your school, they say, well, we have small class sizes, we were faith based, where you have community. I'm like, okay, that that separates you from, you know, one segment of higher education, but how does it segment you from every other school that can say the same thing? So I always try to really encourage people to really think about what are the distinctives that really we do better than anybody else, and whether that is preparing missionaries, whether that's it was discipleship, whether it's just about the way that you know where they're located, the geography. I mean how many? I'm working with the school right now that you know, is literally on the waterfront. I mean they're on a big intercoastal water front and you can get in a boat from their camp buss and go out to the Atlantic Ocean. How many campuses can say that? And so we've got it. You've really got a figure out how to grow where your planted, and I think that's really what you were leading into. Yeah, we're in Minnesota, so hard to advertise that. I play that down a lot. I wouldn't say Minnesota, I would say mini Apolis because it felt a little bit more metropolitan, because people are like, isn't it cold up there? Like uh well, you know, it's only as cold as the the kind of jacket you wear it. It's seventy two and worlds right now. So weather, just bad, bad clothes and we'll help you find this stuff when you get here. Yeah, yeah, well, tell me a little bit about I mean just tactically and practically. I mean we try to be as pragmatic as we can here on the podcast, but I mean tell me a little bit about I mean, obviously you kind of you're new, you're going in, you know obviously Ken as a friend of yours, but at the same time you're going in and saying, Hey, I think we need to do this, I think we need to spend here, I think we need to start doing this. I mean there's obviously some risk that was going to be taken because, I mean, they weren't doing that before.

And how how did you do that? I guess a lot of people might say, okay, I buy what you're saying, then I can get my head wrapped around that. But you know what, my boss isn't going to isn't just going to say, Oh yeah, let's just start jumping into this. Yep, I would try to find as many unique identifiers as possible and I would go hunting for them from your students over and over again. Like I would literally just try to go to students that are brand new, so the the ones that haven't been in your university and haven't been in doctorate and doctrinated yet by why they show up, because they all start to sound the same once they've been there a while. So finding people and you could call them, like the people that are planning on coming or they're really close to showing up, you could call them, but I find I usually just like to talk to them on arrival day and on campus preview weekend. Those guys are gold. And then I asked him like Oh, like, what special? What's special about this place? What special, like why would you come here versus somewhere else? And I try to look for the common thread of what they're talking about. What the answers they give me are literally wow. I start testing out messages when I has later on in facebook round on landing page, where I could split test. Okay, out of the five things that they're saying all the time that I think are actually pretty unique, or at lace they're telling me are unique, on which one, which one's the top one, which one should I put as the headline versus the other ones are supporting bullets or something like that, and I just test and test to figure out which one is the one that's the most attractive. So every school has something going for it. I mean you're already a school it's not like you're starting off as a start up and you have an unvalidated market. You have a market. You just most schools would do well just to Polish up what they have. That's already good and, like Bart like you were saying, sometimes it's the location. Sometimes you're in Colorado, and what more do you need to say? You know, times you're on an ocean, sometimes it's the region. Sometimes you're on an old farm in the mountain somewhere that just has a rustic coolness to it. Sometimes you have a specialty program that's kind of unique and hitting that as hard as possible. That's that's usually if if other schools talk to me and a couple of come my way just because they want to figure out what Bgu did to be successful, and this usually...

...that I some giving is to help them find that thing tactically to I've learned that there's this term and B to be that is not at least I have I never heard it in higher red and I never heard it in the nonprofit world, called marketing ops. Marketing OPS is incredibly important. It's something we did really, really well at Bgu and that's one of the reasons why we were able to get so much done on such a small budget. Marketing OPS is essentially the evolution of marketing automation. Marketing Automation was the term a couple of years ago, but because marketing automations become so big, because marketing automations covered more than just marketing, now it's turned into marketing operations. I was really heavily involved in like the CRM, and actually that the whole crm and what the call center uses and the admissions team even uses all the way up until they register as students was heavily influenced from marketing. In fact, I'm the one who picked the CRM and put it in, actually started building it in place, and originally was just me building out even the workflowes for all the call center to like, follow up with students on. And we used, we use, actually use the small business crm for small schools. You can get away with it. You don't have use popularly for your crm for marketing. If you're using something like Populi, let's be honest. Popular's made for student management, right, it's not made for marketing. So find a find a point where you can have a small business arm that costs way less but it's still doable even with the small, tiny budget. And use it because a small business, RM CRM's and marketing automation platforms are actually highly capable of doing very row sophisticated marketing campaigns. Like we used infusion soft and I highly recommended infusion soft is wonderful. It's more it's fairly robust for how much you pay for it. But even something like active campaign can almost do everything infusion soft can do an action. It's arguably a little easier to use. Hub spots fine too, but I find the price tag on up spots substantially...

...more u should saw. So it kind of if you're at the budget where like I was at like starting hit Eightyzero a year. Yeah, it. Infusion soft is just fine. You can always transfer things over later. Yeah, and we've been we've come across one called lead squared, which also is is, you know, it's got that marketing ops in it. It's crm and everything, and I've there's a lot of them out there and I think it's just a matter of, you know, getting beyond the fact that, okay, I can't afford slate or I can't afford, you know, some of these big you know giant ones that you know sales force or other things, but they are out there, small business crms and marketing ops. I think is a really good point. Then you kind of talked a little bit about I want to go back at just for a second on you know, when you talked about the social proof, you know, being able to have these students come in on preview day or day one and just kind of give you a little bit of the raw data that you kind of crafted some of your messaging. I have to believe that some of that too, that they were providing to you, was either seeds for content or other elements within the marketing program I mean, obviously you did more than just do messaging and paper Click ads, and I know that you know, following you and some of the conversations that we've had, I know you're a big believer in content marketing. Talk a little bit about that, because you might even kind of reference that blog that you and I talked about at once that you know that you've been building out with. I think it's a different organization, but the idea that you're ranking higher on that blog than maybe some ones that people would expect. So that was something that came in later. I would say the tripling of the school mainly, like eighty percent of that really came off the back of like add words, facebook ads and just a well crafted like conversion right, like Very Russell, Br Branson, Branson Brunson kind of style funnel, probably a little nicer than as as far as like how it looks though, direct, direct marketing kind of stuff, but like with a little bit more brand and visual emphasis, because we're talking about young people. So I don't want to look to direct marketing. So that was most of it. But the whole time I knew that, like you don't want to depend only on...

...like PPC to drive all your growth, right, because we were like search facebook ads were ferrals. I'm like, if we lose facebook ads were in trouble and facebook's you know, facebook's young and kind of reckless in my opinion, and honestly, like because of the stuff apples done. Now that's like kind of dying out. Now, like facebook ads are not as nearly as effective as they used to be. So a couple of years ago we started putting an initiative and putting an emphasis on search engine optimization and I believe blogging can be a lot more than search engine optimization. It could be for social it could be to answer frequently ask questions right. A good blog post about it. You know, have good testimonials for different questions, for different stages of the fun funnel, different types of people. Blog post serve a lot of purpose and we did a lot of those, a lot of the people's favorite things. We would craft hold pages around and hold blog posts around if they were coming here because of our tuition paid program. You right at Bgu you don't pay tuition. It's very unique. Actually. That was I had to bury that a little bit in the funnel because it was a little bit too good to be true for some people. So I had to let them discover that on their own because if I then add they'd be like I don't believe you. It's like no, it's true, you still pay room and board, but no, you don't pay tuition. So we did all that. But yes, the SEO did start to pick up and I actually learned Seo from mainly, I can't say one person, it's really two people, but one, one company, one youtube channel, when I discovered their model on how to do search engine optimization, which was kind of antibacklink and really just produce the best content for the this search. Search queries, like our SEO game took off and we got so good at it so fast that we did. We were pump publishing a ton of different blog posts on Bethany Guedu to rank for all the missions key words. But I realized with the team of students, I could write blogs at a rate of ten to twenty articles a week that were rankworthy. And because of that we're like, well, let's just start a whole new site, still a Bgu site, but it's called just disciplecom and we started like hammering every Christian topic we could possibly find...

...or think of. Now that site probably reached two hundred and fifty thousand page views this last month, or maybe two hundred and sixty. But and now I'm like having a vision to like, Oh, what does it take to get a million, because that's where we're shooting for now. We had, we probably we're close to land and a grant so that I can hire a person do nothing but focus on that website to take it there. That's kind of what we've used there and own to mention the person where I learned Seo from and I would recommend anybody who like, if you want to learn Seo Yourself. It's they seem like to just dudes from Idaho figured out that you can do it without doing any backlinks or any offsite optimization, and they're called income school. It's a youtube channel. They do have a like a fairly inexpensive program that they really just teach bloggers how to rank and how to make an income via blogging right and it's probably the most reliable system I've seen. I actually test it on a personal blog and now my personal blog even gets k visits a month on the few blood post that I've written there. But if you actually get a writer on it and start using their methodology, I even use it as sweet fish. I even use it for customers now of sweet fish media who want to figure out how to craft good blogs that are rank worthy out of their podcasts. It's of the utilizing their methodology. They have a couple of different things that are unique to them compared to like most the Seo people out there, and I find that it's actually just approachable and easier to implement than all the other seo crazy stuff that's out there. So that's been a big deal to try to offset the traffic that we were depending on from facebook ads. We're trying to versify that a bit and we have a couple different avenues we're doing that on, like influencer marketing partnerships, but building up justiceciple as a massive site that we could then, you know, nurture the relationship down to the ones who want to go on mission trips to feed into Bgu. That's great. What was the name of that Youtube Channel again? Income School? Okay, income school, thank you, and their websites income schoolcom. It's antastic resource. Great. Well, I think that...

...obviously this has been a really great conversation. One question I had and I know the answer, but I wanted to kind of make sure that everybody else understands. You mean, you're you're a voracious reader and I'm guessing that you do the same thing not only with books but also online and with youtube videos and just you're consuming content all the time. Tell us a little bit about that, I mean how how does that come about, and tell me about your kind of your methodology on that, because I mean obviously a lot of what you're doing you have learned on the job. To say per se from all these experts. Actually, my journey didn't start in college. I actually went right into a Christian internship and then just worked and then later went to community college and dropped out because I just I hated school, which is funny to say as a higher atte marketer, but I hate knowledge. I later went back to school, but if I would have gone to school right out of high school, I would have been an artist and if I would have gone to school two years after gone to school, I would have been a graphic designer. So I'm glad actually waited and worked and found the thing that I really loved, and I really love marketing. I don't know what it is. It's just so flexible. There's so many applications for it, it's so helpful, it's so needed. It's also very profitable, but it's creative, it's fun, it's different from day. Today I get to work with people. I get to work with people on Linkedin all the time and have podcasts like this with you guys here. It's so much fun. I can't believe I get paid to do this every day. You know. So I love, I fell in love with marketing and I found that because I hadn't gone to school. I had to learn how to learn marketing and it started with me just asking for book recommendations, reading it and testing out stuff, and that became kind of the model. I would read a book in the evening or early mornings and then go test it out in the day job, as I was moving into marketing slowly in my career. Kind of started as the designer and were worked into web design and then digital marketing and then just full on marketing, and I found that I would just get really excited about one topic and then hammered as much as possible and in a short season wake up really early for a couple of months in a row, read and then...

...experiment during the day. And it was different topics at different times. It started with like web building websites and then it went to add words and then it went to a conversion rate optimization. I started playing around with free tools there and some cheap paid tools. I have a background and just working at nonprofits and startups, which are like always underfunded, so I never had a lot of money to go and learn take massive classes or more than maybe maybe, if I was lucky, a thousand dollar conference, and that's including like travel and stuff. So I never really had a lot of like expensive resources, but just through books, in the amount of stuff that's online, you can learn just about anything. I was also benefit. I would suck dry any meant any boss I had that knew more than I did, like I would also like get everything I can, like tell me everything you know, like if they had a specialty in pr or media or anything. I'd also try to learn everything I could from each person I work for worked with. So it was just a very voracious learner, even though I wasn't really a fan of higher ad I did eventually go back to college and then earn my BS and marketing in my Mba, but that's great. It was only after learning the subjects and then I went back to school or took the test. Very good. This has been great, Dan. We into each episode and you've given us so much, but if there was one piece of advice you would give, maybe a size school similar to Begu that they could implement right away that you feel that could be very impactful. What advice would that be? I think they think that made us successful, as I was able to do a lot with a little because I didn't outsource much you and if you have to be really strategic, if you outsource a little bit, like you probably only have enough money to outsource one thing, outsource the thing that you're least competent in, and then everything else you kind of have to like learn or become competent in. So outsource your your thing that's the hardest for you. That's good, and then the next probably I'd whatever is like the best, like you're already leaning towards, like double down on that and learn everything...

...you can about that and then start a stair step at learn one thing at a time. Like you might not have enough time to do SEO, but do you already have a capability of testing up messaging? And I would get if you're want to write more and your kind of already a word smithing kind of person, then you should explore conversion rate optimization. Is probably the single biggest thing you can start doing with your website to increase your leads, you know, and that's where you split test your even your home page to see which one gets a bigger a better bounce rate, having running all your ads and things to a single landing page, so you can actually test what you should be saying, because you can find out and learn faster there what's actually working, then random pages on your website, if you drive everybody to a singular page with the only thing they can do is request the brochure, and I do recommend specifically the call to Action for any higher at institution should be the request the brochure. I've tried out a bunch of different things. I don't know what it is. People like to get the brochure in the mail and that's just another touch point that you can like follow up with them with, but I always ask for email, phone number, brochure for name, last name, Undergrad Grad and what their high school graduation did is. I've worked with a lot of different fields, though. That is the money right there was for us and that, if I started at a new school today, those are the exact things I would ask again, because with that you kind of have enough dated to get going and then you can figure out the rest later on. I would also stop spending money at trade shows. I don't know, I've not seen one college it's like, yeah, we're killing it. Maybe. Okay, I take it back. I can think of one college that is killed it with the trade show and it's only because they're big. They have a big budget and they dominate the trade show, not only with the biggest booth, but they have all their professors out in the like in the sessions. And that's midwestern seminary in Kansas City. I know they're killing it through that so they can, they can afford to do a whole takeover of a conference and get all their people out there so they can influence the pastors who are the ones who recommend where to go for seminary. But in in formost a beach schools. I feel like you really have to learn how to move on to digital. I don't I don't understand if you...

...just do a cost analysis on trade shows and just show like how much you spent on it versus how many leads you get. Then you have your cost per acquisition for lead and it's usually outrageous, like just outrageous. Even if you're bad at facebook adds that it's even if with this is not great as facebook ads currently is, you're probably going to get a better conversion rate than that, even in the beginning. You might also try pinterest. Interest is actually not bad. I think you just led into the next topic for when we have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much, Dan, and I think you're an excellent follow. How do you prefer people to either contact you or work? Can they follow you linkedin all day every day. I'm very active on Linkedin, which is how the three of US started really talking right. So go to linkedincom iron digital marketing. Dan, you'll find me there. Shoot me a connector request. I'd love to connect in your Hashtag, Danchez, I think, is another one that they could follow. Dan Chez. Yep, you can follow the Hashtag. I'm like, I'm working on DANCHEZCOM. It's coming soon. It's very good. Love it, love it. Thanks again, Dan. Are Any partying words from you? Yeah, I just think that I think a lot of what Dan has talked about has been so applicable to just about any size school. I mean, I think a lot of what he said was specific to Association of Biblical Higher Education, the Abah that we've been referring to, those small Bible schools and seminaries, but I think a lot of what Dan said is also applicable to, you know, a marketing department of the major university, Public University. I think there's a lot of things that figure out what's going on. Test, test, test, understand your particular market and I also understand what's distinctive about you that's going to move the needle, and I think all those things are really applicable to just about anyone, and so I would just just really kind of encourage you to take a look at that as well as be just that lifelong learner. I think that we all know that marketing moves at the speed of light right now, and so the more you can learn, the more you can pay attention and the more that you can kind of lean in...

...and kind of see what other people are talking about. I mean, that's one of the reasons I really like to follow Dan on Linkedin with his with his comments that he's so generous to do on a daily basis, is that I'm seeing things that maybe I didn't know about. I'm learning things that I didn't understand, and we've got to do that together these days, because the idea of being able to either go take a class on something is those days are gone, and so we've got to kind of take control of our own learning and figure out things and lean into that. So those are just a couple of thoughts. I have tried. Thank you, Bart. Well said, this was an excellent conversation. This podcast, the High Ed Marketer, is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by think patent. It a marketing, execution, printing and mailing provider of high it solutions. On behalf of Bart and myself, thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time.

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