The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode 72 · 5 months ago

Marketing Principles That Translate Across All Industries


As marketers, we cannot be short-order cooks just serving up dishes, but chefs who figure out what the consumer wants and create a meal.  

Kymm Bartlett Martinez is the Chief Marketing Officer at the American Cancer Society. Before she took over this role, Kymm spent 20 years with General Mills before she took the Chief Marketing Officer position at the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota. Kymm brings an exciting perspective to higher ed marketing with her unique industry experience.  

Join us as we discuss:

  • Kymm’s culture shock of moving from consumer goods marketing to higher education. 
  • Marketing principles that translate across all industries and ones that don’t. 
  • How Higher ed requires multiple points of differentiation to stand out amongst universities. 

The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEM APP enabling colleges and universities to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the hired marketer podcast. I'm troy singer and, as usual, here with my co host Bart Kaylor, and each week we quest to interview hired marketers that we admire for the benefit and hopefully the betterment of the entire hired community. I love our conversation with Kim Bartlett Martinez today because she is someone that has worked in marketing for her entire life. A big part of that has been in higher reed, but a big part of it has been outside of Higher Ed, and the perspective she brings is both interesting but also very resourceful. She has a lot of knowledge that she conveys within our conversation. Yeah, I think it's it's an incredible opportunity. I mean we've had a lot of different, different guests on the podcast who have had a background in corporate and then come into higher read and different things like that. But I think one of the things I really like about what Kim brings to the table is that, I mean, she was managing major brands that we all recognize. I mean she worked a big part of her career, twenty years in general mills, so she was working on, you know, marketing campaigns for Cheerios, brand manager for Pillsbury, all kinds of things that were very, very familiar with. But then she took all of that knowledge and went into the freshly minted chief marketing officer role at University of St Thomas in Minnesota. And Uh, that's a that's a medium, small to medium sized private faith based institution. That I think is just amazing story to talk about how she kind of positioned what she brought to the table and really made a big impact and move the needle for for that school. And please know when we first started talking to her she was still at St Thomas, but now she is the chief marketing officer for the American Cancer Society, but she lent us her wisdom still and came back and talked about higher red marketing. So here's our conversation with Kim Bartlett Martinez. It is great to have Kim as a guest on our podcast and it's funny because when we first approached her she was a Cmo at the university, but now she is the Cmo at the American Cancer Society. Kim, thank you for joining us. Uh, if you would tell us a little bit about your current role, but then after that we'll back up and we'll follow your journey, the reason why...

...we're talking to you today. Sure. So I'm currently the two marketing officer, as you said, for the American Cancer Society. I've been doing that for all of two and a half months, so it's still relatively new, Um, and in that role I'm responsible for, uh, stewarding the American cancer sciety brand, consistently telling the full story of the American cancer study all the impact that it has. The brand challenge that they have is that a lot of people have heard of it Um and feel positively about it, but not a lot of people can actually articulate exactly what the American cancer study does. So it's a really fun challenge from a marketing standpoint to be a part of that Um. But before that Um, well, actually, if you roll all the way back, um I actually started my marketing career at General Mills. I have Um, I have been in marketing my entire my my entire working life. My in between first and second year of College I was assigned to a I was working for a bank and they assigned me to the marketing department and I haven't worked out side marketing since. And so I basically spent my career then getting a collection of different kinds of marketing experiences and I started out right out of school in Um, in financial services. That met life in New York City. Um quickly realized that at the age of twenty six I felt like I was teaching more than I was learning and I wanted to actually go work for a place where I could really learn from Um what I considered to be the best of the best of the craft. So to do that I had to go back at my m B, a Um, and then was recruited to work for General Mills, and so spent about twenty years with General Mills and that was what I would call my classic marketing training. Um. Big Company, Great Training Program Great People. Um. But after almost twenty years it was time to think about the next challenge and right around that time the University of St Thomas in Minnesota was looking for its first ever chief marketing officer. and Um, even though I had not planned at all to target or go into Higher Ed, Um, the opportunity just seemed too good to pass up, and it was a chance to build an organization from from the bottom up and to really be part of Um, the Higher Ed world, which I think has a fantastic mission in terms of educating the next generation of leaders and so Um. So I joined. I joined them and was there for about five and a half years before Um and I did not want to get I did. I was not looking, but this opportunity with the American Cancer Society just tapped me on the shoulder and it was something I couldn't say no to. And I feel like my whole career, everything I've done at general mills, everything I did at the University of St Thomas, prepared me for the role I have now and in fact I don't think I would have been able to do this job without St Thomas or without General Mills. That's great. That's great and I think it's interesting and I was. I I have a mixed career as well that I did a lot in corporate and and now focused in on the Higher Ed but I always think it's interesting and I'd like to get your take because I think sometimes, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago, uh, the word marketing was something that's a little bit taboo when you would talk in academic circles. How did you I mean, what was your impression, you know, coming straight out of...

...a large corporate you know, managing some major brands, into a place that maybe saw marketing a little differently than you did? Well, it was a culture shock because in the consumer packaged goods world, you know, marketing is the center of the wheel, as we always like to say. So it is the decision maker, it is where General Management and marketing are merged together. Um. So you do have a lot of positional power, I guess, I will say, in terms of being able to Um lead change there and going from that environment, where nobody questions the value of marketing, into the Higher Ed environment where it wasn't that people, Um didn't see the value of marketing, but they had a couple of questions about it. Like so, for example, on my Um, my initial team I had, I had a several journalists and, you know, as their training, journalists Um in journalism school. That's all about being objective and it's all about putting the facts out there so that people can draw, you know, their own conclusions, and so I definitely had there was some skepticism with a mark are coming in that Um. Actually, even the word unethical was one that I heard used, which I thought was so strange because never in my career have I ever felt like I've either asked or done anything unethical, um. And I I then tried to get to the root of where that was coming from, and it turned out it came from again, this belief that possibly marketers are spinners and that they're not going to tell you the full truth, Um. And so from that that there were some folks that felt that that was unethical and I had to just say, well, we can agree to disagree, but here's the way I look at it. I think of marketers as people. We have spotlights to shine and we get to decide where we shine those spotlights and we're going to shine those, obviously in the place that tells the best story for the institution. But that doesn't mean we're going to be dishonest about other aspects of us. And nowadays you can find pretty much every piece of information you want on the web anyway. So whether I tell you or not, you're going to be able to go find it. So Um, that was that was one hurdle, just having to make sure that folks felt comfortable with Um, with marketers, um. And so what I had to do there is just be really, really clear with the team and as we were forming, that this was a marketing bus. You know, and I think about Um Jim Collins and the words and his words from that wonderful book good to great, and he talks about you know just where the bus is going and you've got to get the right people on the bus. And I said to my team, I said, well, this is where our bus is going. It's a marketing bus and you can get on it or not. That's fine, um, but um, but this is a marketing bus and I would encourage if you don't feel that that alligns with your values, to not necessarily do that. Not Don't get on it. From the beginning. The other the other thing, Um, just with regard to marketing and Higher Ed was this notion of Um, do you really need to sell the product? Shouldn't the products sell itself? I mean it's if it's good enough. Um. You know, do we really need to go out and kind of tell people about it? And, you know, to that end, I was like, well, you know, Cheerios is the number one serial in the United States and yeah, we spend an awful lot of money marketing Cheerios to remind people that it's out there, even though it's a fan tastic...

...products. So it's one of those things just reminding people of the importance of Um, breaking through and building awareness. And in St Thomas's case, we definitely did have an awareness issue outside of our region, where we're very well known, but Um, you know, outside of Minnesota in the Upper Midwest, we had some room to grow. So just trying to make the case for why marketing would make sense Um and just building trust over time. It was the kind of thing like I can say all of these things, but then obviously people are going to judge us more on the basis of what we do and the results that we get. Um So it was. It was about building trust, though, from the beginning. Yeah, and I think that that's such a such a key element. I want to come back to that I at least when I am on college campuses and working with marketing departments, and and even sometimes when they don't have a marketing department, but I'm working with enrollment like really small schools, having them understand that there's a difference between checking boxes off a task list and and, you know, and and the types of people that you have doing it, versus true marketing. I mean, I think even in our in our initial conversations, you kind of talked about project managers versus marketers. So tell me a little bit about that. Yes, yes, yes, Um, and I actually see that to some extent in the organization that I'm in today. So I actually don't necessarily see that as an issue specifically for higher ed but Um, because I think there's lots of different flavors of marketing out there. Um, I think that not everybody understands the strategic value that a marketer can bring, and so one thing that we worked hard to do when we were forming our team at St Thomas was to make sure we set the expectation were strategic partners and actually deliberately did not call the schools and the colleges that we worked with clients, because that would have implied that I had to do whatever they asked me to do because I was their client and they were, you know, paying the bills. Boar. We specifically said what we were partners and, Um, you know, and in that means, um I, when you come to me with a with an issue, please don't come to me and say I need a video that does this or I need I want, I want a flyer that has this picture and these bullets and this headline. Go make that. Um. What I want to know is what are you trying to do? What audience are you trying to reach? What do you already know about this audience in terms of messages that would be you know, that would move them to act? And then let me take this back to my team and let's let us come back to you with what we think would be the way to solve that problem that you're having in the way that makes the most sense, either from a budget standpoint or from an impact standpoint. And so it was about Um learning to be in that strategic partnership Um. That actually was something that we had to get the university aware that this was how we were going to be Um acting in moving forward. So again it required some open mindedness on the part of our partners. So in the beginning we had to give people, the folks on our internal team, permission to be able to be strategic and permission to say no to what was essentially coming in as really tactical...

...requests and to permission to ask to have that more strategic conversation with the partners. And then for our partners, we had to make sure that they understood, hey, we're going to come at you perhaps with some different ideas and some different thoughts than what you came to us with, and what we need you to do is to be open minded about that. Yeah, I think I think that reminds me a little bit about a conversation that we had with Ethan Braden at Perdue University. He kind of called at the difference of being a short order cook versus a chef. You know, the idea that that you know, we can take short order cook orders all day long and just do what everybody wants that's not really marketing, that's actually just, you know, serving up a dish, or we can actually find out what they want and what they need and create a meal. So that's a great, great point. Yeah, no, that's definitely right, and it was actually funny because when I first got to the university and I was thinking about roles and responsibilities and who would have final authority and final accountability, you know, initially I had thought, when I was working with the deans or even, you know, in the center of the university, that Um, those business owners would have responsibility for the strategies, right, and they would actually tell us then these are our strategies, these are objectives, and then we would actually go to work on those. But then I, as the CMO, would have final say over the creative Um and would be able to say this is what I think you should do. And what I quickly realized as we started all working together, that I absolutely wanted to say in their strategies, because I didn't always love the way the strategies were given over and I thought that actually we added a lot of value to our partners, our schools and college partners, by asking some of the questions that we did Um. They weren't always um in conversations where they were really thinking, you know, about what they were trying to do. So in that regard I felt like we were adding a lot of value to them in terms of pushing their thinking on the strategic front a little bit more. And then, at the end of the day too, I also wasn't going to make them run a piece of creative that they hated or that they didn't believe in. So I was like, okay, fine, we'll share responsibility on the strategy side and we can also share on the creative side too. So I what I learned, and this was kind of a theme with Higher Ed, that nothing is like as black and white is maybe it might have been when I was at general mills in terms of approvals. It was much more of a blend, Um, a gray that actually I came to really embrace and really like and felt like we got to Um really great places because of that gray, because we weren't pushing to the black or the white right from the very beginning. So it came to be something I really appreciated. We talk a lot about it on the show. Schools are really struggling today. That makes the same at spend work.

CPMS are up eight year over year on facebook and instagram. Our College clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an owned community where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why Zemi has become so crucial for our clients, with over one million students, close to ten thousand five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top social lapps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week. There simply isn't anything out there like it, and we have seen it all. Ze Me not only provides the best space for student engagement, but the most unique and action wal data for their one sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from our clients that Ze me is a must have strategy for Gen Z. Check them out now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E M E dot Com. And yes, tell them which has to change over. When you came to be, I believe you took the road show to the rest of the campus to kind of convey this. How did that go? Can you kind of describe how how that went? Yeah, yeah, that idea came about because, as I was saying, we needed to train, if you will, the university to work with US differently, because it was a completely different team, it was a completely different strategy, completely different philosophy, and so we needed a way to help people understand what it was that we were trying to do. So that gave rise to the idea of this road show that we did, and we did it not only with all the schools and colleges, but we also did it with all the internal departments, you know, the Finance Group, Um, you know, development, anyone who might want to know about marketing. We were happy to kind of come in and tell our story and, Um, as part of this we covered, um, what our creative vision was and actually, even before that, why we needed to have a creative vision. Um, pointing out that there is a sea of Vanilla in Higher Ed Marketing. In fact, there's even a book on it. It's called three in a tree, you know, which is like we're just saying that basically, you look at Higher Ed pictures, there'll be three students and usually under a tree. You know, that's like your traditional kind of like higher ed look and feel, and so we needed to explain to people why it was we needed to break through, what the importance of breakthrough meant. Um, and then Um, the skill set that we had to go against that. Um, how we were going to be working differently. Um, how do you even give good creative feedback? You know, we had a whole slew of folks that, you know, when you showed them creative would say, well, I'm not sure I really like the color red or something like that, which not super strategic in that so we had to kind of encourage people to know, you've got to go deeper than that, Um and come up with Um. You know. So, what is it that you're reacting to here? Um, that actually might be something that would cause us to think a little bit differently about this piece of creative so we also address the issue of Um. You know, some books were thinking this is higher Ed, this is a very expensive purchase, a very expensive purchase. You know, you can't use humor. You...

...have to be really serious because this is a really serious um purchase. And so we actually took examples from others. We we well, since we were a Catholic, a faith based institution, we actually took examples from the Catholic Church of times when they've tried to go after different audiences and used Um more humorous means of doing it. We have a really terrific example of that in our own backyard here in Minneapolis that we were able to show people, as well as other universities that had broken through by using Um, you know, just really fun different ways of talking about it. So and that way we tried to build the case for why it was Um that we needed to work differently and then how we were going to work differently, and then we ran through our areas. Um at St Thomas. Our group is called marketing, insights and communications, so it's called Mike for Short, and I know that's a little unusual because usually you're either marketing or maybe your Mark Holm, but we very deliberately um named our group marketing, insights and communications, because that insights part. We didn't want that to get lost. And again, just wanted to make sure that every campaign, every thing that we were doing started on an insight, Um, an empathy building for who we were trying to talk to, and so we explained that as part of the road show as well. Why was it so important that that insights be part of Our Name? I think that's great and I think that the effort of doing that road show probably gained you some some street cred, if you will. I mean because you're inviting everyone in for the conversation. But going back to that, one of those comments that you made just a moment ago is that idea of utilizing humor and utilizing some things. And I've done a lot of work in faith based too, and sometimes I know that there's that that seriousness and and and a little bit of that is uh, you know, there there there tends to be some hesitancy on that. Tell me a little bit about one of the creatives you came up with, and I think we talked about this earlier. That, I think is brilliant and I think it kind of illustrates this this this point for you. Yeah, so Um at St Thomas Um, one of the strategic objectives that we had was just reminding everybody about our academic credentials and making sure of the academic excellence was something that was very core to who we were and what we what we did. Um, again, also a faith based institution, but we also knew from research that sometimes people were nervous about that because they thought that maybe they'd come to St Thomas and we would try and convert them to Catholicism or something like that. So we knew to Um that the faith part of what we did was important to whole person formation and was very attractive to parents and students when we talked about it in terms of character formation in general. Um, whether you were Catholic or not, that was appealing and so we were looking for something that would thread the needle there and what we came up with, our our head creative Pete Winnicky, came up with was this line blessed are the Nerdy, which in my mind was just this perfect encapsulation of the strategy that we were trying to employ, where the blessed are the you know, you get a little bit of that nod to the religious faith based and then, of course, the nerdy nods to the academic excellence kind of like piece of it. So it's a little bit of a tongue in cheek thing and um I loved it when I first saw it, but I was actually nervous about it because I wasn't...

...sure where the line was on church humor in terms of whether we put that out into the world. So we did what we often do at St Thomas when we're faced with people who have differences in point of views. We took the risk UM and made it smaller and decided to put it in market just to test, to see how it would react. I mean, and by smaller I mean not splashing it on a big TV campaign right out of the gates, but we tried it in a digital campaign actually that we were we had just lowered our summer tuition by fifty percent. It was like right up, you know, I got there in the fall and then we had decided that we were going to discount summer tuition by but in order to do that effectively, we then needed to of course, double the amount of credits that people were taking in order to be able to break through. And it was one of the first big assignments that the provost had given to me, you know, as part of our new marketing department. And at first we tried to have we had the three in the tree ads, you know, with the kids laying on the grass like kind of with fifty percent off summer tuition, and we did it digitally and the click through rates were actually below um the average of the higher ed norm. So like okay, this isn't working. Um. So then we played around with some visuals where we literally took one of our students into our studio and blew her into her face with a leaf blower so that her mouth would blow back and it would look like and the headline was faster than you can say half off, you know, which was kind of like another way into and that actually did a lot better. That actually doubled our click through rates when we actually ran that, but we were still right around the higher ed norm and again our goal was to beat it. So that's when we tried blessed or the Nerty was our major headline, with the you know, fift off right underneath that, and that thing did five times better than what our original ad had done. So we kind of tested our way into it and then once we saw the success of that and how appealing that was, then we started using it as a key a key line for us. I will say this, though, it's not without its detractors. I mean we definitely, we definitely had one parent call in and be like, Oh, dare you call my kid nerdy? My Kid does not wanted to referred to as a NERD, you know. So, uh, we definitely had that. But, um, but obviously that was few and far between and, as I like to always say, and as we explained to the campus in the road show, at the end of the day what we're trying to do is we're trying to be remarkable. And if you unpack that word remarkable, it's worthy of remark. And why I definitely don't believe that all PR is good pr I mean bad PR is bad pr so you don't want that. But if you're turning out things that nobody wants to talk about, whether good or bad, you're gonna land in that Vanilla land and that's not where we want to be. So, Um, we want to be remarkable, hopefully more positives than negatives, and the blessed are the nerdy line gave us the opportunity to do that and really break through. That's great. I love that line and I love the fact that you know that that the whole comment there was remarkable. You're right, I mean giving people to something to talk about actually in today's segmented world, our culture.

I mean, you know, there's a you know, we thought it was hard when it was, you know, fifteen cable channels and all the other things, but I mean there's just unlimited options that people have for their attention today, and so I think that's great. So thank you. That's awesome. Yeah, no, I'll tell you just an example. This is from I think it was from Lale is Chicago. I'll give up credit to other institutions. Um, one of my very favorite bus transit signs was Um. was was from them and it had a big headline that said we want you and then right underneath that it said now go away and you're like what and when you went in to read the little small print, it was about their study abroad program. You know so, and I thought that was so clever because rather than most everybody else is like sent of our kids study abroad or whatever. You know the you know the status, but the way they did it, we want you, now go away, caused you to invite you in. So it's important. So, Kim, if you would, can you share with US marketing principles, marketing principles that translate across industries and, in your opinion, ones that do not? Yeah, I mean I definitely think there's a lot of marketing principles that translate. Um, starting with the objective in mind, starting with Um, understanding your audience, starting with an understanding of what causes your audience to move Um as one of our my vp of consumer insights, used to always say, what do you want the humans to do? That used to be her phrase, and so answering that question is one that I think you need to do no matter what industry you find yourself in. But one of the biggest differences between say like Um, well, to say like just use a brand like cheerios, versus, say, like, marketing something like St Thomas. When I was over on the food side of the business, you know, we were always looking for that one thing that we could say for our product that nobody else could say about their products, so that you know, single point of differentiation, if you will, Um, that you were always trying to get across Um. And when I came to St Thomas, I was looking for that and realizing that Um some there. With what is it four thousand, five thousand colleges and universities across the United States. I mean how difficult is it to find one thing that only you can say? And so I came to evolve that thinking too. It's not the one thing, but there is a collection of things that nobody else can say. So now I think of it as almost like a cocktail. So we have a unique cocktail that no one else has this same connection, and so that's Um, it's still the point of trying to be differentiated, but it's a little bit different in the way in which you go about it. I also think that from higher ed it's really important as you think about that differentiation. So it's not only about, like, you know, your your proof points and your cocktail at proof points, but it's also about the culture of your institution and then it's about the experience that people have when they come there. So that whole customer experience part and those three things kind of coming together are really what creates differentiation within Higher Ed, which is a little different because not everybody has to think that deeply all the way through to that Um when they're selling a product. But I think in higher ed...'s important to do that. Yeah, I think you're right. I think when we interviewed Um Brian Kenney, Chief Marketing Officer at Harvard Business School, he made a comment. You know, he had been he didn't been incorporate before higher ed and he was like, you know, I really think that higher Ed is one of the most difficult things to market. He said, your your audiences are so much broader, the different types of products and services that you're offering, that everything there's there's variables that just kind of go on top of variables, and so I think that's that's really Um interesting. But I think even the buying process, I mean it's it's one thing for you know, the historical you know awareness and intent and all all the the typical funnel that you would have in a marketing funnel, but you know, an enrollment funnel, you have that in addition to all the steps that they have to take to actually go from an inquiry all the way to matriculated student. And so I'm sure that that's part of the challenge that that you found. Two is is just being able to see the different, um, different elements that maybe make higher at a little bit different. Yeah, Oh, for sure. I mean it's like, you know, not that three dollar of three dollar purchase of a, you know, a bag of snack mix isn't isn't significant, because I'm not saying that any outlay of cash is never inconsequential, obviously for somebody, but it just takes a different Um, perhaps mental set of Um questions that you have to go through. If you're only going to spend three dollars, you could be like, I'm gonna spend this and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But you know you're not going to lay out the cash, you know, for a higher Ed Education Um and and there's the impact of that not working out is so much higher, so that that Um, the funnel then becomes so much longer because people are trying to make the right decision as they go through it. So really spending time thinking about the awareness piece of it and are you drawing enough leads into are there? Are there enough folks that are aware of you that you're getting enough into your funnel? And then how do you help folks through that consideration phase where you're trying to give them their information that they're looking for that's going to help you get onto that short list of schools that they're actually gonna apply to? Then all the way through to okay, now they've been admitted, how do you get them all the way through to committing to you? That's just a much longer process Um than what I was used to, but a very important process and I think it's important to really kind of understand what Um and we looked at it from both the student and the prospective student and the parent perspective just to make sure we're understanding like the emotions, the information needs, all of that, you know, kind of like all the way through, although I think it's also really important to remember, and Higher Ed as well, that there's a lot of impacts on that commitment decision and a lot of those levers are outside of the control of marketing. You know, we used to talk about the four PS um. You know, you think about the product p you know that's not something that marketing is really, you know, responsible for. That's that academic experience, that's the student experience, kind of like once you're there. And the other big P is price, right, Um, you know that is actually one of the biggest Um can be... of the biggest determinants and how much money your institution is willing to invest in financial aid as an example. So Um, as goes though those decisions, often as goes your enrollment numbers, and sometimes it's easy for people to just poke over at marketing and be like hey, if the enrollment number is down, you know it's because marketers didn't do their job when maybe also you cut five million dollars out of the financial aid budget or something else that's bigger. So what I was always reminding it it's like, well, you don't know what the opportunity costs of not having that marketing would have been, you know, like in terms of like how far down that but it is. That's where again, people's like not understanding, Um, that marketing doesn't own all of it, and I do think marketing place a really important role in shaping the narrative and the perception of an institution. So it definitely helps there. But I just think it's important for everyone to remember that there's other levers to that are very important and they all have to kind of be working in the same direction for you to have ultimate success. Right, Kimbeth, you would is there a piece of advice that you could give our list snerves? Um? Well, one piece of advice that I would have is about learning to embrace the constraints that you have, um, because sometimes I think it's really easy to say, well, I I want to do this, but I can't do that because of x, Y and Z reason, and I'm a firm believer that creativity is unlocked in the space in between your ambition and your resources. And so when your resources are high and you're I'm sorry, your ambition is high and your resources are lower, in that space is where creativity unlocked. If your ambition and your resources are right around the same level or if your resources worse, outstrip your ambition, it's going to kill your creativity. So, Um, I think that leaning in and embracing constraints is definitely something that people could do immediately. and Um, one of the best ted talks that I feel like I ever saw was a talk called embrace the shake. Um, it's only about a ten minute talk, which is another reason why it's so great. It's one of the short ones, but it's all about an artist who did a certain type of work and then was unable to do that certain kind of work again and had to pivot. Um, and I've and and it's all about what he learned that, once he embraced the constraints, it unlocked creativity for him, and I feel like that's something that we as marketers can definitely also benefit from as well. I mean I went from like Oh Gosh, marketing budgets with many Zeros after them. In my general mills world, too much fewer Zeros, you know, in my higher ed world. And yet, Um, I don't know, good ideas get funded and if you just put your mind to it, there's there's always ways to kind of get out there, and I think that that is just a piece of advice that I would give to anybody. Just embrace your embrace the shake, as the Ted talk says, or embrace your constraints, because you'll be better off for it. Kim, thank you very much for your time, for your wisdom and the interesting way you convey your ideas. It's been a pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you. I've enjoyed being...

...on here. I really appreciate your invitation. If someone would like to reach out and contact you, what would be the best way for them to do so? Um, best way is through Linkedin. That is my favorite social platform, and so I'm always happy to have people reach out and say that they heard the podcast and I can accept them and we can go from there. You can bart. Would you have any final thoughts that you would like to share before we end the episode? Yeah, this was just such a great episode and I would encourage you to rewind and listen to some of this again, but I just want to point out a couple of things that can had mentioned that I think are really applicable for anyone at any size school. Um. Keep in mind that, you know, the job of marketing and I think that I think some of the illustrations that Kim use would be a great way for you to communicate to others in your school is to put a spotlight. You know, it's it's it's amplifying the good things that are going on, and Kim used that example as as an example of, you know, some of the challenges that she was receiving on campus about marketing maybe being unethical or or or less than what we all know it is, but, you know, just being help, helping people understand that we're putting the spotlight on, on the stories that need to be told. That will help people make the decisions that they need to be making. And I think that also just the idea that I really liked, the idea of the way that Uh University of St Thomas, Minnesota, spent some time testing blessed are the nerdy Um. I thought that was a really good way of of kind of looking at that start with a digital campaign expand that out. I thought that was really wise. I think as marketers we have a responsibility to use data in our decision making and I think that that was a really good way to start that. And I really liked the comment that she made about being remarkable, the idea of doing something that's going to have people remember you and and have people talk about you. Um and many times remarkable can, as she pointed out, can be good or bad. Um often if we do something remarkable, that we get out of that Vanilla area, we can have something that's a little bit more worthy of discussion. I think we can all think of, you know, products or services or schools that we see doing that that are getting the conversation, that things are happening, that things are, you know, being talked about, and I think that's a really good way of doing that. And then I think also, just finally, that last comment that she made with with the you know, the difference between ambition and resources. And that's where creativity is. I remember, Um, you know, consulting, you know consulting in one of my designers several years ago and they were so frustrated that one of the projects came back and that the client, you know, put all these constrictions on it and they wanted all these challenges and he was ready to throw in the Talleng to say I'm done, and I said, really, this is where this is where your opportunity is, is to do something totally different. Um, you know, because now you have boundaries and you have to work within those boundaries. And I think, you know, I saw him bloom into something that I had never seen. His creativity fired up, and I think that's exactly what Kim was saying, and so I really really appreciate that comment and Kim, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the show. You're welcome back anytime. Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. The hired marketing podcast is sponsored by Kaylor solutions and education marketing and branding agency and by thing patented, a marketing execution... combining print and technology for personalization for Higher Ed Solutions. On behalf of my co host Bart Taylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,.

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