The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode · 3 months ago

Confronting the “H-Bomb”: The Truth About Managing a Popular Brand

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When Brian Kenny tells people he’s the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer for Harvard Business School, they often say, “Why does Harvard need a chief marketing officer?”

Yes, Harvard is a historic brand, and that might lead some to believe that it markets itself, but it turns out history can sometimes be a double-edged sword.

In this milestone episode — our 50th! — we talk with Brian about the challenges of managing a well-known brand, including how to balance being seen as both historic and forward-thinking.

We discuss:

- How Harvard Business School uses a podcast for marketing efforts

- Positive and negative perceptions of the Harvard brand

- Advocating for marketing budget

- Responding as a university to societal issues

Mentioned during the podcast:

- Reach out to Brian on Twitter: @hbscmo

- Check out our nomination on Terminalfour 

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Higher Ed Marketer in your favorite podcast player.

Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Higher Ed Marketer. You've probably not heard my voice before, so please let me introduce myself. I'm ROB cottlet executive producer of this show. It's been my pleasure to work with Bart and troy over the past year to create this show to help the Higher Ed Marketing Space Grow and improve in these challenging times. Before we dive into today's episode with very special guests Brian Kenny of the Harvard Business School, I'd like to take a moment to acknowledge the absolute truck load of hard work and dedication from Bart and troy that makes this podcast work. Their willingness to show up week after week with amazing guests has led this show to be named number four on terminal fours, two thousand and twenty one list of the top ten podcasts for Higher Ed Marketing and recruitment teams. I'm incredibly proud of both of them and this show for shedding new light on the cutting edge of marketing for higher ed institutions and I certainly hope that you'll enjoy this episode, not only for our renowned guest, but with also some of the new additional touches that just make it shine a little bit more. So please sit back and enjoy this deeply insightful conversation today and help us celebrate fifty fabulous episodes of the Higher Ed Marketer. You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, don't know, relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If you are looking for conversation centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High Reed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer and I'm here with my cohost and most sincerely one of the best business partners I could ever have, Bart Taylor, and today we are bringing you our fifty episode of a hired Marketer podcast. How does it feel to be fifty, Bart? It's pretty incredible. It's for the second time for me, or as years I should say, but yeah, I'm so proud of the work that has gone in over the last year and it's been an honor to share that road with your troy. Thank you, and today our guest is Brian Kenny, who is the CMO of the Harvard Business School, and our conversation with him today is really what is the truth about managing a very strong, popular brand. And Bart, the reason why we felt it would be good to have this conversation is so often you and I are encountering people that's saying if I managed a brand like Harvard, it would be an easy marketing job. So you, to your credit, reached out and was able to get the CMO of Harvard as a guest so we could talk to him about that and then get some other thoughts that at our very interesting. About the CMO roll. Yeah,...

I thought it was a it was a great opportunity and I was really thrilled that Brian, you know, reach back out so quickly and said, wow, you've got a great podcast and I really impressive list of folks you've talked to. So thank you all the previous folks that we've had as guests. But really the question came down to is do the elite of the elite really need to be able to market? And I think that you'll find this conversation really a good one. I think Brian kind of kind of lets you in on some of the things that that he's challenged as as chief marketing officer of the Harvard Business School, and he'll go into some of the details that are unique to Harvard. But in essence really is pay attention, because a lot of this is not unique to Harvard. It's unique to higher education marketing, and so I think he really gives you some great feedback and great tips that you can apply to your own school. Yes, the first half is really about that and Harvard business school overall, and it's podcast, but then the second part is about the h bomb and without further ADO, here is Brian Kenny. We are proud to welcome Brian Kenney, chief marketing and communications officer for the Harvard Business School, to the Higher Ed market a podcast. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. If we could ask you first tell us a little bit about yourself and then also your role at the Harvard Business School. Sure Right. Well, first time, thrill to be here, great to be a guest on your show. I'M A chief marketing and communications officer at Harvard Business School. I have the distinction, I guess, of being the first to hold that title, which is a mixed blessing, which will probably talk about at some point. But I've been in this role for coming up on fourteen years, which anybody knows that. You know, in a marketers life, fourteen years is like five eternity's really long time to be in the same role and I think a little bit it speaks to the nature of the exciting and dynamic natuure of Harvard Business School. I've been in and out of higher education throughout my career. I've worked at three major universities in Boston plus a small college, always in a marketing communications role, but I also stepped out for, you know, a decade or so and worked in the private sector in both professional services and high tech. So I've had, you know, a little bit of experience and other worlds that I brought back to higher ed when I when I return to this sector, and I think it helped me to see things maybe from a different perspective than somebody who's always been in higher education. And these days, you know, I have lots of conversations with people who have always been in the private sector and they're thinking about their next career and they they really want to explore higher ed as an opportunity so I think it's a great thing for anybody to explore. I also think it's the most challenging marketing role that that you can have, and I'm happy to go deeper on that and explain why I why I believe that to be true. Harvard Business School, for those of you, for those of your listeners who are you, they know the name, but if...

...they're not familiar with the enterprise, we are about a billion dollar enterprise, a hundred and fifty million roughly to a billion, and we're known for the NBA program which is where we started, first school ever to to grant the master's in Business Administration. But we also have an executive education program that that you know, teaches about twelvezero executives who come through a year. We have an online program we're reaching tens of thousands people a year and we have a publishing enterprise that does hawevard business review as well as business books and and a whole host of other kinds of publications, as well as corporate training product. So it's a pretty diverse institution, all focused on management education in one realm or another. That's great. Thank you, Brian, for given us that introduction and certainly that's a that's a large portfolio for a for a chief marketing and communications officer to manage. How does that I mean certainly part of it is is what I would consider traditional higher education, but then there's aspects of it are, you know, the publishing arm and other things like that. How are you kind of relating all that together? And maybe that goes back to your initial comment about, you know, it's one of the hardest marketing rules that you can do. Yeah, it does a little bit. I think that's true no matter what institution you're in. I think education is, you know, the the the various audiences that you have to think about as a as a marketing person in education is quite different than if you're selling a particular product or service. It's easier to ident to fi that target market that you've got in those other endeavors. In education you've got to think about students and alumni and, you know, town gown issues and the general public and, you know, so the the academy, all these other audiences that you've got to think about. So you're constantly shapeshifting from one meeting to the next where you might be talking about a social media strategy and the first meeting that's targeted to prospective students and then you're having a meeting about how are you going to deal with this building construction project that you've got going in the heart of the city and you've got, you know, neighbors around you that are riled up about it. So I think it's challenging because of the it's constantly calling on you to adapt and to address different kinds of situations. You know, if I think about my role at Harvard Business School, that business experience that I had really became very helpful to me here. When I was in professional services, I was working for management consulting firms and I got a really deep dive on the kinds of issues that sea level executives have to think about on a daytoday basis, and that experience when I when I came to Harvard Business School. It felt like the combination of the educational experience that I had plus the business background, you know, really came full circle and dovetailed nicely at a place like HBS, which is a little bit like a business and a little bit like an educational institution. You know, we're bringing both of those worlds together and one of the things that HBS is known for is that the business case studies that we write are based on actual business issues that leaders challenges that leaders have had, and so all you know, the way that our...

...faculty think, the way that the leadership team runs the school is very much like you would see in a corporate setting, where we're thinking a lot about the business strategy of the of the school. Great, Great Brian. Another aspect of the business schools that you have your own podcast, and if you could tell us about cold call and what it's mission is and maybe how the university utilizes that podcast and its marketing efforts? Yeah, I would love to talk about my podcast. Thank you the opportunity now. I yeah, so I love podcasts. I listen to them. I've listened to them for a long time and, you know, I saw when podcasting became a little bit more accessible because bandwidth became better and you could actually listen to podcast when you are on the go. That, to me marked an opportunity for us to think about a different way of getting the word out about the work at Harvard Business School. My job, the job that I described from my team that we do every days to tell stories that animate the mission of the school and the work of the school, and part of that is bringing the voices of the people who are doing the work to the surface. And when I say voices I can mean that literally or I can mean it in writing and other ways, but podcasts are really a great way to humanize somebody and for a long time there was a mystique about Harvard business school and that worked for probably the first eighty or ninety years of our existence. But we live in a time where people want transparency, they want access. Social Media has made that available and I think it's really helped us to help people see that the things that that faculty and students that HBS do are very impressive and very ambitious and they are changing the world in many ways. But at the same time these are just people and when you hear them talk about the the business cases they write and the work that they do, it really brings it right down to earth and humanizes them and knocks away a lot of the mystique that maybe creates a barrier between us and the public. And one of the thing I would say about cold call. Every episode features me talking to a faculty member about a business case they've written. We teach by the case method and many other business schools have adopted the case method as a way of teaching. Every case is a story and every story is something that anybody who's in any aspect of business should be able to listen to and pull a lesson away from. So we think it's a great way to show the relevance of case method research. That's great and I guess I would do a follow up question that. On that, Brian, is the fact that, you know, you talk about authenticity and being able to show that real aspect of the faculty and of HBS and other aspects of the institution. Would you say that that's even more important? Mean, certainly podcast like to do that, but isn't that more important for the generations that we're dealing with, like millennials and Z's? And you know I'm an exer. I think that, you know, it's that mystique still kind of plays in a little bit with with with our generation, I think, but I think as you get further younger generations, that mystique starts...

...to kind of rub them a little bit the wrong way and they do want that awesome to authenticity. It's it was that what you're finding. Yeah, I think that's definitely true and you know, I feel like everybody's got their mobile device in their hand all the time. We've got a generation now coming up. Who Are you? They're looking at tick tock, they're looking at short form video. You know, they they don't necessarily want to have to. I think there's a couple of dynamics. One is they want the information to be there when they want it, when they need it, when they're ready to consume it. PODCASTS are on demand, so you know you can you can download that anytime you want. They're very convenient in terms of being able to listen to them while you're doing something else, and I think it's a medium that allows the listener to go deeper than they would if they were just scrolling through their feed. You know, they're going to look maybe a two minute video, but they're willing to invest in a twenty or thirty minute podcast if the content is good and relevant and if they're in a place where they're going to be there for twenty or thirty minutes. So for a lot of us that's the car during our commute or that's the gym when you're when you're on the treadmill, podcasts have made it really easy for people to again enjoy long form content, whereas I wouldn't expect a lot of people in my children's generation there and their s to read a Harvard Business Review Article. I just I just wouldn't, and that's a reality that I think we're all reckoning with. And HBR has known this for a while. They've scaled back from monthly issues to buy monthly. So they do six printed issues a year and even within those issues they have Experi mented with shorter articles and, you know, case briefs and things like that as a way to address this. And they also do podcasts, obviously you know so. So I think podcasts are solving a number of different challenges that we encounter. What we're trying to take complex ideas and make them relatable. That's great. That's great and it kind of is another, you know, kind of going into another direction here when we talk about, and you know, the authenticity and that mystique and and other elements around that, and I think that you know you and I talked in the preview with with troy in the pre interview, I kind of joked with you about the idea that so many times I have. You know some of my clients who bemoan a little bit to say, boy, if I were Harvard, I wouldn't have to mark it as hard and you know, you'd reference something about what's what you kind of call the H bomb. Tell us a little bit about that and how that relates to to kind of what I'm hearing on my end. Sure, so the h bomb is a by the way, I will say that when I got this job, you know, I called my mother, who my mother who is a huge fan of Harvard University and and she was elated that I got hired to work at Harvard Business School and she said, after a minute or so of congratulatory comments, she said, but wait a second, why do they need a chief marketing officer, which question I get a lot and I understand it, believe me. So I would say that the the H bomb phenomenon is something that Harvard Alumni speak about pretty regularly and it boils down to people who are affiliated with Harvard, whether it's faculty or or alumni or, you know, students or...

...staff. They're always a little careful how they introduce that credential into a conversation because the Harvard brand, although it is wellknown and well respected and most circles it's also viewed negatively. You know, in a lot of ways people think about it as an elitist brand. They they think that people who are part of Harvard University are Ach you know, intellectual elites or academic elites. They're arrogant. You know, at Harvard Business School we hear about words like greedy and self centered a lot. I understand those perceptions exist and I'd be like candidly. I had some of those. You know, when you work at other institutions it's easy to look at a place like Harvard and say, man, they've got it easy. You know, look at that endowment. Now, anybody who knows about endowments knows that you can't it's not like a bank. You can't go right withdraw money from the endowment. You need them. They're important, but they're also earmarked for a lot of things. So I think a big part of our job, you know, those of us who are in marketing rolls across Harvard University, and I should just clarify I only mon't do marketing for the business school. Harvard is a very decentralized place and the law school has their own person and the Kennedy School and so on and so forth. But I think a big part of my job is to help knock down those miss perceptions about what it's like being at Harvard. We are an elite institution and I think that's important and that's a big part of our identity, but we're not elitist, you know. We want the best people from around the world to come and study and work and teach at Harvard Business School. For us it seems very, very important to of as diverse or group as possible, and that means diversity in every realm. So you know, the more that the better job that we can do helping anybody who hears about US see themselves at Harvard Business School. You know, that's important for us to continue to work on. That's great and I and I think you even talked about too that. You know, sometimes, you know anything something bad happens in business, eyes get turned a little bit to to HBS and kind of talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I think I told you I started in two thousand and eight and April and in October of that year Lehman Brothers folded and the world economic collapse hit and was very you know, that happened on a Friday and the emails that were flying around over the weekend. We're basically, you know, between the Dean and the leadership team were it's not going to be long before the world points their finger at Harvard Business School and says, why did you let this happen? And that is something that sort of goes hand in hand with beating, with being the category leader. You know, HBS is looked at us sort of, you know, one of the Pinnacle Business Schools in the world, and it is a couple of others that are in that rarefied air, but we're certainly one of them and it's understandable that when you know something goes wrong in the business world, the connective tissue between HBS and Wall Street is pretty strong and I, you know, I understand that people look at us for that. So we talked at that time and ever since then, where we face criticism like this, our first reaction is not to be defensive, it is to be a...

...self critical, it's to look at ourselves and say, will wait a second, is there some truth to this? Should we be thinking about what we're hearing here and should it in some way cause us to change the way that we think about how we do our jobs and how we educate students. So self accountability is kind of the first reaction and I would say that, you know, over the years there's been many instances and in fact there's been books. About every three years somebody writes a you know, a credible a book that's critical of the business school. You know, we always read that there's always going to be a certain portion of it that is a little hyperbolic and you know, and that we can even easily cast off, but there's almost always a kernel of truth to something that's in there and we have to be able to read that and then be circumspected about it and look at ourselves and make sure that we are being authentic to to what we say we are. So that's kind of the the reaction that we have when those things happen. Yeah, and I love the fact that you know a lot of what's coming out of this conversation is the idea that while yes, it's a recognizable brand and yes, you've got some challenges in the way that the age bomb and other things like that, at the end of the day it's a lot about managing that tension and managing those you know, the Classic Ven Diagram where you've got, you know what, what the world believes you are and who you really are and what they need and, you know, kind of finding that, you know, soft spot in the middle. It seems like that could be applied to really any school, whether it's a large elite school like hbs or whether it's a small private that has a few hundred students. It's really managing that tension of who you are, what you're known for and what that student needs. Yeah, I agree with that completely and I would say that every academic institution to some extent faces the same challenge that Harvard does. Harvard has it, Howard's been around longer than the rest. So I there's a term that we talked about called heritage brands. You know, and and and most academic brands are heritage brands to some extent. They've got a history that they that that's a really important part of their identity and their value system and and that history is important to hold on to. At the same time, if you let that be your defining brand characteristic, then you're kind of stuck in time and you can't really be looked at its innovative and forward thinking. So the tension that we're always trying to balance is, you know, Harvard University has been around for three hundred and, I don't know, seventy plus years or something. Harvard Business School has been around for a hundred and fourteen years at this point. We Love Our past, we love our heritage. At the same time we don't want people to think that we aren't innovative and entrepreneurial. So we try to hold on to the qualities of the past that we think give us strength and demonstrate our leadership and at the same time we want people to know that we are thinking about the future of management education, not the past. That's great. In our previous conversation you had mentioned both some advantages and some obstacles that I want to make sure we revisit in our conversation today. One of them that was an a half for me is when...

...you're managing a strong brand, or what's perceived to be a strong brand, there's an issue with not being able to create a sense of urgency, and I would like to know if you can let everyone know what you mean by that. Yes, happy to so. Yes, I mean one of the so it's great when things were going well and your brand is strong and it's well recognized. Of course that's wonderful and you know, we have the benefit of having very generous alumni who have been generous through out to us throughout the years, and that's why we have such a big endowment and fundraising base. I think the the flip side to that is it's hard to create a sense of urgency when there's no burning platform. You know, if you're in the private sector, if you're in a firm where sales aren't where they need to be and you know you're not going to make your targets, maybe you're a public company and you got to make your goal before the next quarterly report, it's in the marketing role. In those situations it's pretty easy to say we need more funds to go do this and fix this thing, or else we're not you know, we're going to be in real trouble. That urgency has never existed in that way at the time that I've been at Harvard Business School. In fact, the school had never run a deficit until two years ago. Was a two years ago. It might have been last year. I get my fiscal years mixed up, but when covid hit, like everybody else, we had to, on a dime, move everything to remote and that then we had to shut down our executive education program which was a huge cut hit to the school's financials as a result of that of, you know, twelve plus months of not having executive education, we ran a deficit one year and that was a big, big blow, you know, in terms of our ability to always operate as an efficient business, which we pride ourselves on. That's really the closest we've come to having a burning platform in the time that I've been there, and that wasn't something that marketing could fix. That one, unfortunately, I was a pandemic and we're still kind of facing that a little bit. So I think we often, I often find myself in the situation where I am really advocating for brand maintenance, and maintenance matters. If you don't if you don't maintain your foundation, your brand is your foundation, or if you're not working to make sure that that foundations day strong, then erosion will happen. You know, you have to actively manage it or erosion will happen. That's an argument that I'm able to make that I think people understand at the business school, because we take a lot of pride and making sure that we maintain our educational foundation and we maintain the foundation of the physical campus that we're on, because it's such an important part of what we do. So I found a way to kind of make that my argument and, you know, for investing in the Marketing Organization and an actively managing the brand might work for some of your other listeners. I don't know. That's great. I really like how that, how that plays out, and I think that that's a great example. And you're right. I mean the pandemic has impacted everybody and it's kind of even doubt a lot of a lot of those things and it's it's interesting to me that, and I'm sure a lot of ours listeners would find too that, you know, being able to pivot like that, I mean some folks weren't able to pivot. Means so many...

...people say, oh well, we just went into our online platform, where there were a lot of schools that didn't have an online platform or didn't have you know, like with your executive education. That was not a possibility. So it's it's interesting that, you know, we are all trying to figure things out in this time as well. Sure another challenge that you face, Brian, is when something happens that's popular or maybe negative in the business community, fingers get pointed at Harvard, rightly or wrongly. Again, if you can explain that scenario and you know how you manage that or how that affects your role. Yeah, so you know, I think, I think for our first reaction whenever those kinds of things happen is that we want to take a we want to listen to what's being said, we want to take a hard look at ourselves before you know, I find that the inds, the the instinctual reaction of being defensive rarely works, and this is true in every place I've been, whether it's been in higher education or in the private sector. You know, you can't you can't be defense without sounding defensive, and oftentimes we find that there is some truth to what some of those those criticisms might be about the school. So the first thing we try to do is take a hard look at ourselves and say, because there's some truth, theories or something we should be doing differently as a way to address this issue. Our students are often, you know, challenging us on the decisions that we make as an institution, and I think every this was something we all face in high education, is that we've got smart, ambitious students. Were surrounded by them and they're looking at what we're doing and they're looking at us as examples of how to lead and they're going to challenge us when they think we're not making the right decisions. So again we try to take that posture of saying, well, let's take a step back and listen to what they're saying and, you know, if there's some validity to their concerns that we need to address that, you know. So that really extends into our leadership style. I think, generally speaking, unfortunate to be part of our leadership team that's been largely intact the whole time that I've been there. We've turned over a few key positions, but if you look at the way that the school has been run from the administrative side, that management team has been pretty solid and and I feel like we've been able to weather the storm through things like the pandemic and the black lives matter movement, which, you know, really caused all of us. That's probably a good thing to just pause on for a second. We had always talked about the importance of inclusivity and diversity and we believed it. I think, you know, it was important to us, but was always just kind of it was in the ether, but it wasn't really something that we were really doubling down on. And the murder of George Floyd and the and the the emersions of the black lives matter movement made us and pretty much everybody else go, wait a second, you know, there's something different about this. We really have to think hard about this. So, you know, this leadership team that unfortunate to be part of we...

...really focused in on that and the Dean did and the academic leadership deemed did and we involved the students and I'm happy to say that the outcome of that has been a sustained, really intensive effort to improve racial equity across Harvard Business School, to bring in, you know, diverse faculty, to bring in a more diverse student population, and there's a plan that we've now got in place and we're following the plan and we're seeing the progress that's that's come about as a result of that. You know, that's a situation where the criticism was warranted and you know, we've done something about it. So I like that we're able to, I think, respond to these situations and rise to the occasion and, you know, I think it's important that that we all try to do that in our in our roles as leaders in these institutions. Brian, as we close our episode today, as everyone knows, we see Harvard as a gold standard. We like to ask for a last piece of advice for you from you. So, if there's a piece of advice that you would offer other marketing officers that they could implement right away, what would that piece of advice be? It's a really great question. It's a really hard question, Troy. Thank you. Thank you for leaving me with a hard one. You know, I'm going to give the advice that I often give two people when they start at Harvard Business School. I talked about the H bomb earlier. There's a there's another phenomenon that happens and I think it happens, you know, in all walks of life, not just at places like Harvard. But it maybe it's a little more, you know, intense at Harvard, where the students on the first day of class, where they're being welcomed by the Dean, will often talk about sitting there thinking, Oh my God, they made a mistake. How did I get into this place? What am I doing here? They picked the wrong person. And I think if you talked to pretty much anybody who starts a new job anywhere you know, who finds himself in a position where they've all of a sudden got new challenges and they've got to manage people, and yeah, they probably are thinking the same thing like, Oh my God, I faked my way into this thing and now what am I going to do? I've got to really live up to it and I've got a deliver. So, on the one hand, I would say that kind of you know self doubt is not a bad thing because it makes you really focus and think hard about what you have to do. On the other hand, I would say that from where I sit now, having been in, you know, different roles for many, many years, I'm not going to tell you hold I am, but I'm probably older than most of your listeners, I would say for me the one thing that has helped and that I tell other people to do is to listen, you know, really listen to what people are saying and listen twice as much as you speak. Leaders, some leaders have in tendency, I think, to feel like they need to solve the problem right away. You know, they need to commit, step into the meeting and, you know, and size things up quickly and show that they're decisive. And oftentimes, if you just let things play out and you let the conversation play out for a while, good ideas will emerge and, you know, maybe your job is just to facilitate those and to keep them coming out, and you do that by, I clear in the air and just kind of letting people offer their...

...advice and insights and expertise, because chances are you're surrounded by pretty smart, capable people and if you give them an opportunity, you know, you might be surprised at what they're able to accomplish and then you just get the glow effect of working with them. So I would say my advice, something you could start right away, is to just really step back and listen, you know, with in ten thank you very much, Brian, for that. We really appreciate you being our guest on our fifty episode. We wanted this to be a special episode and you've certainly delivered for anyone who would like to contact you to continue the conversation or follow up on one of the points that you made? What would be the best way for them to contact you? Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for it, for it's quite an honor to be your fifty guest. I really do appreciate that. So so, Barton Troy, thank you for having me as your fifty guest and I've enjoyed the conversation. I'm happy to keep an eye of people can find me on twitter at hbscmoh. That's probably the best and easiest way to get to me, so happy to if they want to direct message even or that kind of thing, happy to respond great. Thank you. Thank you, Brian Bart do you have any words that you would like to leave us with on our fifty episode? Yeah, this has been created quite an episode. So, Brian, thank you. A couple things that I just wanted to point out and kind of pull out from some of the things that Brian had said, I think, so many times, and he kind of alluded this in several different points, but we all like to look at the other side of the fence and say, Oh, look how green the grass is over there, and boy, that would be a nice problem to have. And all, everybody has their own challenges. It doesn't matter if if we're, you know, small private college that we've talked to that I know a lot of you out there listening are small private colleges and I know who you are, as well as all the way up to, you know, the oldest institution in the country, Harvard University. We all have our own challenges, we all have our own victories in our own successes. Sometimes it's better to just kind of, you know, take a step back and listen and get your breath and just kind of go back to some of the basics of blocking and tackling and marketing, and so I think that was a really good point. You know, we all have different senses of urgency and sometimes you don't have that, which is another problem, and so I think that Brian kind of pointed out that there's a lot of similarity all the way through high Ed. I really appreciated him saying that the role of a high ed marketer is sometimes one of the hardest roles in marketing period, and I think that that's something that you might want to take back to your cabinet and your and your leadership and let them know that the CMO of HBS said this. So I think that you know, because we've talked to Ethan Braden at perdue and his notion of you know, we need to be the drivers on campus of the brand and of the marketing when it comes out of the marketing department. We can't be driven. We can't be the short order cooks who have to make it look prettier by Monday. So I think there's a lot of really good things to kind of tone in and take into these things and really kind...

...of apply to your own campus. I also really appreciated just the intentionality that that I hear in Brian personally as well as in Harvard Business School, because we talked little bit about the Dei types of things, with inclusivity and with and with the black lives matter and the and the intentionality that that Harvard is put together with a plan. I think those types of things and even his last tip there where he talked about just the quite honestly, the intentionality of of improving your emotional intelligence, of being able to slow down, being able to listen when you feel like you might want to talk. I think those types of things of being an intentional marketer and intentional person, intentional member of the team, is going to be so critical. So again, thank you so much, Brian. Really honor to have you on the show today. My Summation Bart, appreciate that and congratulations to you guys on fifty episodes. By the way, I know as a podcaster that's a big number. That's a good one. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. We are very proud of that and I want to thank everyone for joining us on another addition, our fifty episode of the High Red Marketer podcast, which is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by Think, patented, a marketing execution company combining personalization and customization for your print and mailing campaigns. On behalf of Bart Kaylor, my cohost, I'm Troye singer. Thank you for joining our fifty episode. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,.

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