The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode · 1 year ago

Breathing Life into Higher Education w/ Experiential Storytelling

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

With the shift to online schooling and a decrease in enthusiasm for liberal arts, it’s more important than ever to emphasize how the story told by in-person higher ed impacts a student’s life more than any other learning experience: critical thinking skills that can be used in any profession; a community of students eager to help each other; and a call to storytelling—creating leaders that others can see themselves in.

Phil Cook, VP for Enrollment at Lee University, joins the show to discuss the importance of higher education and its impact for the future of the world.

What we talked about:

- Higher Ed's Benefits & the Debate of Online Schooling

- The Loyalty to a Student’s Alma Mater

- Investing in Critical Thinkers Over Higher Pay

- Helping Students See Themselves in Higher Ed Through Storytelling

- Bringing Energy & Enthusiasm to Campuses

- Advice for Listeners

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- NACCAP

- Phil’s Email

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.
 

You were listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High Ed Marketer podcast. My name is troy singer and I'm here with my cohost Bart Taylor, and today we get to interview a wonderful Chrismatic and energenic marketer. His name is Phil Cook and I think Bart, you're familiar with Phil in the circles that you run within. Yeah, that's true. Phil was introduced to me through a common friend. Phil is actually going to be taking over as the executive director of NACKAP, which is the North American coalition of Christian College professionals, and the job he thanks. It's a mouth, but people who are familiar with knacap just call it Macap, and and so it's sound. He's very passionate about his role. For the past thirty years at Lee University and Tennessee but now he'll be making the journey northward here to Indiana to take the helmet at KNACKCAP and I think he has a lot of really good things to say that, regardless of your type of school. He references a lot of faith based schools. But don't don't tune him out too quickly, because I think you want to make sure that he has a lot to talk about with emotion and passion and how to articulate the benefit of higher education, regardless of your school type, and how important that is, through storytelling and through other that means so really looking forward to the conversation. So true, Bart. So, everyone, here is our interview of Phil Cook. It is my pleasure to introduce to everyone Phil Cook, the Executive Director of the North American Coalition for Christian the missions professionals, to the podcast. Welcome ...

Phil, thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be with you both and I'm excited for the conversation. Looking forward to it, as are we. And if you could tell everyone a little bit about yourself, your background in your role at Nackcap, where I'm the new guy. I'm brand new troy, so I'm going to beat I'm just be started when this is when this is launched and when everyone gets to listen to it. So I'm new to the executive director role, but I'm not new to NACKCAP as I've been a part of the membership and the Organization for many years due to my work, in particular in recruitment and in admissions and enrollment work at a member institution of NACAP for many years. So I've been a part of Lee University in Tennessee for twenty eight years and I've been doing admissions and professional and enrollment work rather for twenty five years. So I've been around the word for a long time, been around that cap a long time. But Man am I excited to be a part of the the larger conversation as we help admissions professionals from around the country in North America do their work better and helped serve our students and families as well. That's great. Well, thanks, Phil I think. I think for a lot of people who might be listening to the to the to the PODCAST, they might not be familiar with NA cappen. You just kind of gave a little bit of a thumbnail of it, you know, supporting a lot of other organizations. I mean it is the North American Coalition for Christian emission professionals and so so really kind of focused in on Christian schools. And I guess before we get into kind of the first topic, because I think that this first question that I want to talk about is just just this idea of how much higher ed can have an impact on individual lives and I think that one of the things I've always really respected about NAC happen and other organizations like it. I think that cap has a unique angle because of the faith aspect of it, but there are other organizations that are supporting education because of the student success and, ultimately, I think,...

...because of the way higher impact ultimately impacts our society. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that and how that relates to the new role in that cap. Yeah, of course. That has been around for fifty years and, for that for the past twenty five years. Many of our listeners will recognize the name Chant Thompson chansing. Chant is a legend in the industry. After a long term tenure at Huntington University in Indiana, he stepped into the roles the first and only full time director and for twenty five years he has served with distinction and built the foundation upon which all of us stand and work today. But they are we're working to have admissions professionals and specifically faith based schools, for our organization to help change students lives and to transform their lives. So higher education does that. Education does that. So how can I have a better life? Will Education can do that. How can I be a better member of society? How can I get ahead in advance in my career? Saw An article, I think it was the chronicle of higher head this week that was profiling earning potential on income. Those data are still out there that show students who get a four year degree will make more money over the course of their careers, in lifetime. So NACKAPP and schools like us want to help students find the right fit school where they can get the education with excellence to prepare them for their career, but also find the right fit where their holistic development is fully in play. So that means emotionally, that means and a places the NACAPP, that means spiritually, because we are faith based institution. So that's the larger task before us as we work to help Christian education around North America and, in particular, as you makes the question, par specifically at higher institutions. That's what we seek to do and we'll can teen you to do as we get started and cranked up in my role there. That's great and I think that one of the one of the things that I I anticipate is going to happen over the next several years, and I think it's going to accelerate because of the pandemic, is this idea...

...that I think a lot of families are starting to look at higher head especially with with the way that costs have kind of increased over the past several years. And you know, it's it costs more for a higher degree than it did in other areas of our society. But I guess, I guess I'm thinking that as higher ed marketers, we're going to need to start articulating these extra benefits that higher ed brings to someone's life, because I think that right now, I mean there's a lot of families that are looking at it and saying, okay, you know what my son or daughter did online for their junior year of high school, do I really need to invest in a traditional four year degree? Can I just rack it up with, you know, ape credits and and can I just, you know, do a gap year to get them a little bit of experience out in the world and then just do online classes or whatever to just kind of, you know, wrap it up? Tell me how how you see marketers really trying to help help us articulate that benefit, because I think it is a critical benefit that, honestly, I don't want to see US lose. I agree with you that the challenge has been great. In my role, in my work at one institution for many years we've had to make the argument every day, one on one. Macro of course we have to do that and get the messaging out, but the critical piece from my person spect it becomes this is a people to people, business people select institutions or people are donors might give money because of the persons and the people with whom they're interacting. So the challenge is even greater now, as you said, because of the pandemic. Our challenge is the business model can't be sustained if we just look at it through an online or zoom delivery. We can't compete with the public's we can't compete with the two years and we can't compete with it on price alone. So what we have to do is make the argument that this is more than a commodity. We're not just buying a can of beings, we're not just buying we're not buying a car, we're not buying a cell phone. With that, that what this is about. There's so much more to this experience, because when you choose a college university, you are literally choosing a universe that you're going...

...to insert yourself and immerse yourself. So what kind of person do you want to be whenever you come out of that school for four years later? So it matters the kind of faculty that stand in front of you or even make zoom in from zoom with you. What kind of person, what kind of values is that person have? Do they align with the values that we have as a family and, in our case, with NACAP as families of faith? So what is that worth? Is it worth a sacrifice? We think it is. Is it worth a little bit of student loan and deadness? We think it is, and is it worth extracurricular programs or classes that make the difference to be have someone become a better person? So you know, I'm excited about the challenge. It's a bigger challenge, in my opinion, then it's been since I've been in this industry. We have to make the argument intelligently, cogently and impassioned that choosing a four year school and a faith based institution is the right choice for our family. Yeah, yeah, that's great and I agree with you. I think that that those years a formative years between eighteen and twenty two. I think that all of us who have experienced that traditional higher end experience know how formative that is, how how that universe has shaped us in different ways and I think that sometimes that also kind of sets us on a course. And again, this is another reason why I think it's so important for high end marketers to understand the ability to articulate the benefit of that universe, if you will, because ultimately ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road, those alumni are going to turn around and give back to the university and help other students kind of have that experience help other students, help shape them, and I guess that's maybe one of the reasons why there's so much loyalty and maybe a tunament to Alma maters and talk a little bit about that because I don't our pre interview you had some interesting things to say about that. Well, I mean literally the from what from what I know, Alma Mater means mother. So what more affinity, what more emotion is there in the right traditional family setting? Understand sometimes with parent...

...kind of upbringing and rearing theirs trauma that, but in the traditional setting, what more affinity is there for your mother, the one who cares to the one who nurtures you, the one who gets you along and set you up for life? So so, in that eighteen to twenty two year old time frame it is critical for us to make those connections intellectually, cognitively, but also emotionally, that this is something, that place that cares about me, and then I in turn, when I graduate, I care about it as well. I spent one year, one year as a minister of youth before I came to that Alma matern go to work. Well, my take on that was as twelve, thirteen, sixteen, Seventeen, eight year old, you're just trying to survive, right'd get them to get through the day and and hopefully they listen to you. But it's the eighteen and nineteen and twenty and twenty one years, when you see that progress happening, when you see that maturity right before your eyes, that's the payoff. That's the magic of the college experience. Never again, in my life at least. I don't know about you guys, but did I have the freedom to make the decisions that I wanted, to make the mistakes and learn from those in the way that I did, but also to have success, to build confidence and set me up for success in life. So that eighteen two to twenty two year old time frame. It's critical from my perspective because we want our students, not capps schools, all of our schools, to have an affinity for their alma mater that will never go away because of the wonderful life changing, transform national experience they had when they were student. Yeah, that's that's really good and I know that. I know that lives changing experience as they've had a students, and I see this especially in faith based. I'm a product to faith based so I understand that little bit more. But I think that, like you, we're going back to the very beginning. I think the impact that highered really it gives because of that confidence. It's built because of those being able to have the freedom to learn from your mistakes, those different things of kind of molding you into the person that you are. It kind of impacts our society in the way that we are creating better people and I know that there's been some different folks that kind of have have made some comments about...

...that that you mentioned earlier. Maybe we can kind of unpack that a little bit. Yeah, and it's a real challenge now because many of our schools and faith based institution, I'll talk about the one milem the modern where I've worked for so many years. We just have we describe ourselves as a Christ centered liberal arts institution with a liberal arts it's been a struggle. The Liberal Arts that commits Lib Rot is fading in a lot of places because families, rightfully so, want to see a return on the event investment. What kind of job my going to get from this? Feel if I choose to come to your school, what will it cost me to go in there and what will I be able to make when I get out of here? And I get all of that, because the growth in many department programs is in the professional areas business, communication, education, nursing, medical, all those are where the money is. However, I also believe that there's that the commitment to being a better critical thinker, the commitment to being a better person that when I'm in those jobs are I'm making money. We want people to be leaders who have integrity and have values that transcend what's out there in the world. So the fact is and we need that. We need that it in a time of our lives. Our Society needs that, our government in our country needs it right. So, yeah, the the better person, the critical thinker that's going to be a that has a moral base that solid and again, for us it flows from our faith. So yes, we think we can prepare you for a career where you can make some money, but yes, we also think we can help you to be a more well rounded person, a critical thinkers. Then when you're with your employer, they think highly of you. When you're with your family or your civic duties or your or your faith based institutions, that you're going to thrive as well. That's the challenge for us and I don't know if you can tell, but I'm excited about the challenge that we have in our institutions to be able to bring that the bet bring out the past right now. Yeah, I can tell that's great and I do love your passionate about this and try that. Maybe that kind of leads us into the next question about how do we how do we get more into in the passion and emotion? It most certainly does, and our previous conversation with bill, he told us that because of his success...

...that he's seen in this career and at Lee University, one of those things is bringing passion and bringing emotion and selling that as part of how you market the university. And still could you let us know how you feel others could do that as well. Yeah, the there's no doubt that, especially in universities, we are part of the academy. We are to be thinkers. We are to prepare students to think and critically reflect then to be more intelligent in that regard, to more intellectual. On the other hand, I think the people with whom I've worked that I've really found success is yeah, I remember what they said and I remember what they've taught me men. I remember how they made me feel when I'm around them. Do I leave this person's presence feeling more encouraged? Do I feel better about myself. So from my perspective it's the it's the I heard somebody describe at one time as you've got the stake and you've got the sizzle of the stake. Right, so that's the stake to the stake got to be good. It's got a taste good, but man, that sizzle, that that beginning of it. That's the the intensity and the passion of it that we've got to bring and students, Gen Z I'm not even sure at the night I should know this what the next generation is going to be. I said Alpha, that's right, you told me that last time, or Alpha Zup. But I'll tell you what, as a Gen Xtra, myself real, recognized as real. So I don't want emotion just for emotions sake. It's got to be put from a place of authenticity and it's got to be a place that speaks truth. When you do that and you have the intellectual commitment to train people the right way and you bring with it an energy, my opinion it's a recipe for success that will impact our students to have better lives and to be more successful. That's what we want to bring to all of schools and high I think all. Hired can do it, public schools can do it. I'm finishing my PhD at the University of Tennessee, at Knoxville. There is an emotional connection I have at this research one university. That's huge. But in my program with my oh whore, their emotional connections to the professors and the others in...

...the program that mirrors this. So I think it could be done at all levels, but of course I think it could be done at faith based institutions quite well. Yeah, and I think that's really important that you kind of mentioned that and I we actually did a blog post this past week or two about storytelling and I think that too many times, I think sometimes as marketers and as I think we're guilty as higher ed institutions, were quick to kind of roll out the the outcomes, roll out the numbers, roll out the cost per credit hour and we lose the opportunity to really tell stories where I think that's where the gold mine of emotion lies, is within stories. I mean, and we've got a guess coming up in a couple weeks who's the chief storyteller at University of Notre Dame and he and I were talking on the on the pre podcast either. They just kind of give a little bit of a teaser for the for that podcast, but maybe you can kind of respond a little bit to fill is the idea that storytelling. It's been used for eons. If you want to look at you know the way thinkers throughout time. Jesus used storytelling, it through his parables. Storytelling is a very powerful way for people to not only in take content, but to and take it, not only the content as well as the emotion that then sears it into their memory, and I think that's what you kind of alluded to while ago, is when people are leaving something, they're going to know how they felt about something more than necessarily being able to recite the facts of that. So tell us a little bit about that and how you've you'd size that and how you encourage others to. I'm walking across campus to find a place to do this podcast and make it hopefully perfect for you guys and for our listeners, and on the way out the door our admissions team saw me packing my office and I stopped and took about. It ended up being on a thirty minute so I didn't want to boss my my president to know, but I've told some stories. I told some stories about my experience. At one point in residential life I cut my teeth and higher it and red life, which my guys their tons of stories there, if the walls could talk, and residence...

...halls around the country right, right, and even on our campus. But I told a powerful store that was the most, single most galvanizing professional event in my life was a fire in a men's Residence Hall Twenty Five Years Ago when I twenty eight years ago and I started working here. That story, as I'm telling it, of the twelve admissions, young profession in their room. They were, to use an over to use an overused phrase, they were leaning in and listening to every word. They weren't born but they knew. There's something powerful about that story, the challenges in it and the successes, and everybody, in my opinion, wants to someone to hear their story. So when I get to tell my story, one I hope that you'll take it and be and be gracious with it right and and a firm me in the story, but listen to it and and then when you tell your story, professor or administrator, can I see myself in you and what you've done so, I think on our campus and hopefully what I continue to do is when perspective students go to visit a school, can they see themselves? They're based on the store that's being told in a macro marketing way or in a one on one way? So it tour guide, pictures on a website, a phone call, it text message? Does this student represent me? And as my story similar to hers, I think I can see myself there. Yet. So the power of story, in my opinion, is not the whole ball game, but man, you can make a taste that. It's the most important thing. Yeah, I love that film. I love the fact that you pointed out, you know, the different ways that you can get that, because I do think that everybody, every perspective student, wants to be able to experience and see themselves in in the place where they're going. Then you're looking at that's why every school I've ever talked to said, boy, if we can just get them on campus for campus tour, we can really get them here. Well, that's because they're experiencing and seeing themselves in the place because it's physical. But I often tell my my clients that, hey, we're getting ready to do your website, and one of my biggest complaints is the websites that I see where there's just, you know, empty libraries or there's, you know, here's the shot, beauty shot of the of the building that no one is walking around, no one's in,...

...because they taking these shots in summer and nobody's on campus and for whatever reason. But my arguments is that, you students can't see cannot see themselves in that unless they see another student, another human in that. And all the more important to make sure that our photography, are videos, are are stories that we tell, the engagement that we give, are all inviting someone to participate and be a part of it. I me yet I'd rather see thirty pictures on the website of just people standing in line and in the coffee shop or or, you know, just candid shots. You know, kind of call them journalistic shots. Were just, you know, capturing real life, because that's when we can really start to picture ourselves and see ourselves in in the story. And so I love the fact that you'd mentioned that and I love the fact to that again, most students, you know, ninety percent of them who finish a campus too, are going to end up at that school and I know that was a big case for for my kids when they when they're shopping for college, and it's what I hear a lot of places and I think that being able to tell that story and have that experience is so, so critical. It's alusive. Now, Bart I got to say that the whole pandemic and Covid is made this more difficult. From me, I'm a bit of an old guard guy in that, in that room. But then when you say, yes, we got to get him be campus, well, what do you do when you can't get him be campus? How many how many technology pieces, can you do it? Obviously we have to do that. We have to be Nimble enough to do that. But I do believe that one of the keeping the main thing, the main thing idea is, as we come out of the pandemic, one of the things about NCB that we do our college fairs and so our office in particular, we are eager to get back on the road and meet people and see them facetoface so they then can come to campus. So it's a difficult challenge, more difficult than ever, but I think that one to one facetoface connection to hear stories and to do on campus is it's the best case scenario. That's great. That's great. And just kind of transitioning into this next thing that we want to talk about, you know, before we kind of end our conversation here today, is this idea that you kind of alluded to, the fact that KNACKCAPP runs a lot of college fairs or so there's a lot...

...of one to one in those college fairs and and to me, I think that you know a lot of what we talked about here today is the emotion, the passion storytelling. You know, how do you want to make sure that as you bring kind of new breath into into NACKHAPP, and again chant has done a awesome, wonderful job. I mean he has set the table for the next phase. But as you bring that next phase of how do you see yourself kind of bringing that passion? I mean you are a passionate guy, but bringing that into NACKAP and helping all the member schools start to understand how they can be more successful in utilizing these stories and utilizing these emotional experiences and utilizing these facetoface engagements through things like college fairs. Well, it's first just to one more time reiterate the fact that I'm a following someone who's done something so well as daunting the idea of it is is and, to be totally human, obviously it's a little bit intimidating. So I'm who I am and what I've done, and so we're going to bring that same kind of energy that came think came of energy, the same kind of excellence, and then we have to execute and do what we said we're going to do well. Those are my three e's that I work on all the time. Energy and enthusiasm, excellence and it were going to execute what we set out, the plan that we do. So that that that's on my mind and to build upon the foundation that chant has has set before us. But what I hope will happen is the schools that are doing this well we'll just continue to learn from and prefer the other thing about this is that we have a real strong collegial professional respect for one another. So we get together. That's part of it professional out it's a big part of this too. So those that are doing it well will continue to energize those that might be kind of wrestling and struggling a very real challenge for us in this industry, in the enrollment industry, is the departure of leaders from the industry overall. Not every week, but almost every week I get another announcement of her another enrollment position. That's open public schools, research, one university. So there is going there. There's a vacuum in that regard for leadership. So, whatever it is, we've got to find a way to do it and what we're going to do is collaborate with our board and collaborate with our staff and say,...

...all right, how can we do this filter bring that kind of energy and enthusiasm to all the campuses to ensure that we're doing it well. And here's what I think about in that regard. It's all about the students. It's all about the families. When I feel a little bit in discouraged or perhaps intimidated by the task, I think about students who need to hear our stories from our schools, students who need to have their lives changed and remember what my life was like by that changing. Then I'm invigorated to the task and ready to accept the challenge. That's how that's how we'll approach it. That's how we hope we will execute our plans moving forward. That's great. That's great. And before we kind of get into the last thing, I just kind of want to put a plug out for a KNACKAP because I know that I've worked with knackhapt for several years. We've worked on several website it's and and different aspects of that through your chance leadership. But I also know that one of the things that drives NACKAP is membership and we might have some people on the call that are a faith based school that might be interested in learning more about how they can gain more professional development, how they can join a group of like minded individuals for that. Just give you a couple of minutes just to say how might they get involved? Yep, well, thank you for doing that. Whenever the announcement went out a couple months ago about my appointment as the new executive director, I got two emails. We got multiple emails, but to right away one was from a lea lum who is a high school guidance counselor to faith based school and she said to me couple things. To Fail, congratulations, I'm so excited you're going to get to do this. But to NACKAP has been the single best professional development instrument in my life as a guidance counselor so. There's a K through twelve education, faith based part of this that we definitely want to make sure we emphasize. So if they're out there and they're you're working at a faith based institution and you're in the K through twelve, industry, yeah, we want you to be a part of NACAP because it is about the professional developments. My first and the second was the second was from another vp for enrollment who said the same thing. Look, I went to a KNACKCAP conference many years ago. I met people to this day who are the ones that I commisserate with and learned from. My first experience with NACKAP was the national conference and when I went...

I actually thought, wow, there are people like me crazy enough to do this, and they do it because because, again, faith based, they love the wile word and they love their institutions and they love we done so that was such an invigorating thing for me. So clearly that CAAP DOT ORG gives the way to get plugged in and connected. would be eager to have to grow the membership. Absolutely. We're eager to grow the professional develop in the national conference that we that we do and the ongoing professional elements that we do. We're eager for anyone to come join us because we believe it's a bargain and you're going to you're going to experience to get much more out of it than you then you could have ever thought. Yeah, it is. It is truly a bargain, especially for institutions, but even even for individuals. A I'm an associate member just to kind of again transparency on that that. You know I do a lot of a lot of work in the faith based higher at institutions and so I've joined that cap as an associate just to be able to be able to understand and and take advantage of some of those resources as well. So try. I know you've got a couple questions you want to kind of finalize with us. Sure, just one last one, Phil. You've done such a great job of giving us the big ideas and you do it so passionately, but if there would be a quick bullet or a nugget that you would share that an individual could implement that you feel would be beneficial, or something that's currently working for you that they could benefit from, what would you share with them. I think I'll just continue the thought of this fire on our campus that we had. What I learned from that experience as a young professional was the details matter, that every little detail of our jobs, preparing for a PODCAST, getting the call sheet ahead of time. So I'm prepared to talk about it. I was a server when I was a student and I worked at little mom and pop shop. My training was here's the notebook and here's the man you go take an order, who's terrible. Was Crazy. I graduated, went to graduate school, worked at at more professional place and they did Sorough detailed training and one of their core tenants was a TD. The other was keep your head on a swivel.

Okay, but the ATD is at a tension to detail. When you go to a table, you prebus, you get little piece. So the details matter. Yes, the big picture of the dream of what we're talking about is hopefully encouraging and invigorating to us all, but the way to get to that dream and be successful it's all about the details, the details that make things excellent. That's the encourage my offer to an individual, to an organization would say, all right, what can I be doing today? That is detailed and down in the in the in the dirt. Now, me personally, sometimes I need help and say okay, so come here, let's work on the details. I hear your big vision talk and get over here. So it's about finding the right people to help you do that. So for me, attention to detail, making sure that what we're doing is going to bring us about success and results. Love it. Thank you for sharing that. Bill. I'm sure that for people who may not be familiar with you or Knack Cap, you've earned some fans today. So if anyone would like to get in touch with you, what would the best way for them to do that be? Well, interesting because I'm in transition. So for three more days it's a certain email address, but but I would. I'm that's not, though, what I'm gonna do. I'm going to give you my Gmail address. If that's okay, will that be? But that be a serve. Yeah, fill fill Cook Philcoka, one one at gmailcom. As we get into that camp. I'll assume those duties here and in a few weeks and I'm ready to go and eager. We have a wonderful staff. They're not just chant but a season professional staff that are ready to go. Got An email from the mess I think Phil Indian is ready for you that I'm ready to so we're getting up there. But Phil Cook One and one at GMAILCOM and then, of course, all of the MACAPP staff are eager to serve anyone out there who's interests may be piqued by the work and the good work that we're doing together. Thank you, Phil. It's been a pleasure getting to know you during this process and I look forward to getting to know you even better. Bart. Do you have any parting thoughts before we end the podcast episode? Yeah, I just want to kind of reiterate several things that feel said. I mean, I think the attention to details is something that's it's a huge, huge part because, I mean, if we're...

...going to tell stories, if we're going to communicate our passion, we have to do it with some thought and some planning and some details. I mean we can't just, you know, tell a story that doesn't have any details, and so I think that that's an important thing. And then I just kind of keep going back to the fact that we have got to, as professional high ed marketers, really start to articulate the benefit of what our experience is all about. I mean, especially if you're a school that's really focused on traditional Undergrad you've got to be able to tell that story. You've got to be able to tell that benefit, because the assumption that that's just the path is eroding, and so we've got to be a little bit more creative in Stud and telling those stories and in articulating that huge, huge benefit that very few other places can one individual have such a life change in a short four years outside of a higher education experience, and so I think it's important for us to communicate that, articulate it well and tell those stories very well. Thank you, Bart. Well said. As we end the PODCAST, we want to remind everyone that too great companies come together to make this happen. The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Barts Company, Kaylis solutions and education marketing and branding agency, and by Think, patented, a marketing, execution, printing and mailing provider of Higher Ed Solutions. On behalf of Bart Taylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,.

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