The Higher Ed Marketer
The Higher Ed Marketer

Episode · 1 week ago

Empathic Storytelling: Identifying Appropriate Content for Your Audience

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In higher ed marketing, it can be a struggle to understand who our target audience is and what their needs are.

Sometimes, that means pausing and stepping back to make space so we can meet them where they are through empathic storytelling.

Cutler Andrews , Senior Associate Vice President for Engagement, Communications, and Marketing at Emory University , shares how his team elevates Emory’s brand through impactful content.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Making digestible marketing content for your target audience (3:37)
  • Redirecting focus to alumni affinity groups (19:20)
  • Challenging assumptions and engaging communities through DEI (27:03)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website or search for The Higher Edge in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High Red Marketer Podcast. My name is Troy Singer. As always, I'm here with Bart Taylor, a project partner, friend and mentor. Each week we invite marketers that we admire or sometimes that are recommended to us and have wonderful conversations that the rest of the marketing community can hopefully benefit, learn from, and be a little entertained. Today we get all three. We're talking to Cutler Andrews. He is the Senior Associate VP for Engagement, Communications and Marketing at Emory University. Cutler is energetic, He's super smart, and you can see the reason why he leads this advancement and marketing team at Emery. He gives a lot of information and I can't wait for our listeners the benefit from the information that he shared. Yeah, it's such a great podcast. I've really enjoyed getting to know Cutler over these last couple episodes that we've talked to him and meetings that we've had. Uh. He is very smart, and he goes into a lot of details about how Emory, you know, a large R one institution, how they are using storytelling, how they're using content, the ways that they're thinking about that through their personas, and and even down to the point of maybe even some of the emotions around that, the empathy that they try to look at when they when they're putting that content together. So a lot of really practical, pragmatic things. And and keep in mind too, a lot of the supplies regardless if you're a big school like Emory or if you're a small, tiny micro college, which is a new term I learned this week. Uh, those types of things are going to apply to you regardless, and so a lot of really good things to talk about it. Today. I'm happy and proud to bring our conversation to you with Cutler Andrews Color. We're excited to have the conversation about Emery, excited to have the conversation with you about what you're doing. But before we get into it. We always like to start our conversations off with our guests and ask them if there's something that interesting or something that you've learned this week that you could share. Yeah, it was. I was traveling this week visiting alumni and some of our volunteer leaders of the New York this week, and it was a really good reminder as someone who sits back here in the office a lot, as a marketer and a communicator of the need and the value of actually being out in the field. I think oftentimes what we do is we...

...look at data, we look at analytics, we look at you know, click throughs and open rates, and we analyze it from that standpoint. But I actually sit down with somebody who's receiving your content and who's experience in it. From that standpoint, I sometimes forget the value of that. And it was extremely eye opening this week to be able to do that, to talk through you know, what does embory feel like and look like to you from a marketing communication standpoint, and what are the things that we can do better and to be willing to actually listen to make those changes. And so it reminded me that I need to do it more and not sit behind the screen and to really, I mean communication and marketing is two ways, and if we don't have the mechanism for feedback and return, we're not going to be able to build value and make the changes that were that we need to make. Color. I assumed that most people know Emory, but if you would high level, can you give us a brief description of memory. We are a research one university, so we have a nine schools within the institution about a mix of undergraduate and graduate overall. We have a really large academic medical center as well. We're Division three, so we have a we have a strong athletics, but their Division three athletics that is not the tail that lags the dog here um and it is a it's a fascinating it's top twenty five institution. It's absolutely incredible research, incredible students and faculty to come out of here as well. Um as folks know, it's in Atlanta, so we're in this kind of epicenter of of of commerce and travel and research with the CDC almost sitting right on our campus. So it's a really unique institution from that standpoint. Thank you. And at the beginning of the intro, I did say your title, but if you could for context tell everyone what rolls up through you. Yeah. So in my area, I oversee our the in realumni Association and all alumni engagement. On that side, we also have a team that's called Marketing to donor Participation, which is um comprised of our marketing and communications team overall of our our creative team or content strategists. We have a multimedia team as well as from a traditional standpoint, a new giving teams that focus on the university but also focused on the the acamic medical center side of the house as well. We manage most of the primary events for the university also everything from homecoming to commencement, everything and kind of in the mix there overall, and we also have done a relations in a large project management team. That's pretty cool. Thank you for sharing all that, Cutler, and I know that when we had our pre interview and we were talking about some different iteas and things to talk about with all of those teams reporting up to you, and I really loved your interview question at the very beginning about what you've learned and the importance of that two way feedback making content digest...

...sestable. And I'm sure, that's part of what you know, when you have that feedback, you know that it's digestible because they are responding back to you and what you said. Um, let's talk about that a little bit, because, I mean, the idea of of all those different departments coming up, there's a lot of content that's coming out of out of where you're, where you're sitting, what you're doing, and um, you know, making that digestible and I might even say, you know, intriguing or educational or entertaining is a big responsibility, especially in today's marketing world, where content is kind of kind of the king right now and it will be for a while. So let's talk a little bit about that. How how are you guys really focused on that and what you're thinking around that idea. Yeah, it's interesting. When I think about content, I think about it probably a really broad sense. I mean, I think about the events that we do as content. I think about kind of an a new giving letter from a social media there's all of it is content for us. And you know, for us, we we start from the perspective of the audience, and again we don't always get it right it is, but at the core we're trying to you know, design thinking terms or trying to empathize with the audience and understand outside of the context of emory what's important to them. I think oftentimes there's a trap in in our industry is that their institution, their alma mater, is the most important thing in their lives. It's not. I mean, sorry, they spent four to six years however amount of time here, and there's a lot of other things that we have to be cognizant of when we when we build that content out, we have to understand what channels are using, We have to understand what their interests are. Um, we have to make sure we're kind of meeting them where they're at. We have certain things that we're really focused on talking about. It doesn't mean they want to hear it, and I have to somehow kind of it's it's a negotiation. I've got to kind of get them interested and certain things so almost I hate to say, like right to come almost click bait, like what is going to get guard their attend and in order to get them to hear the other things that we want to talk about. And so we constantly look at it and when we think we press or we challenge ourselves around the channels that we use, the length of content, the messages that we do. Do we we we've used an analects on the front end to kind of build out the strategy, but then we also use pretty significant reporting and analysis on the back end to understand what was it effective or not. And like I said earlier, it's part of it's going out and just talking to people. I mean it's great I can look at all the data, but I can also hear the idea, So that mix of qualitative and quantitative data that's critically important. We've leaned more heavily into visual content. You know, universities are really good at long form written content. We're not always great at taking that and digestion it down. I mean, I think a corresponsibility what we have is to make complex thoughts and concepts digest a little to a larger audience. Yeah,...

...it's kind of like that idea of you know, taking the alumni magazine and turning it into a YouTube short. I mean there's a big, big difference in that, but that takes a real skill to be able to do that, and I think that's, uh, that's something to considers. So as I think about, um, you know, what you guys are doing, I'm guessing. And this is where I'd like to kind of tease out the conversation a little bit. So many times we talked about the importance of personas and starting with that, and I know that for you guys, I mean big institution, you know, a lot of different schools, a lot of different paths through that, a lot of things that different. And so tell me a little bit about how you guys are really looking at that alumni persona, because it's not just one persona, that's correct, I mean, and really, so we did a formalized percenter project here, so we you know, we did surveys, we did focus groups, we took analytics, and we built out and up. We took about you know, thirty five clusters down to seven personas, and what we talk about personas and press They're just a tool. They're not true all be all to this. And so I have to take a persona data overlay it with school data, um action data. You know, what are what else are they? How are they interacting with us? So if I can say the Robert over here in the persona is all these other things. But then I have to overlay all of these other data points into that, and really where the personas have been valuable is slowing us down. I think we talked last time around kind of one of the quotes from cars being you know you sometimes have to slow down to speed up, And that's it's a struggle for us because the amount of content that we have to produce. Um, we have deadlines for everything. It's not like I can move homecoming or I can move a campaign. I have to get to that point and taken extra time on the front end to really empathize with the audience and think through this persona sometimes the easiest phase to skip because we just want to go right to design and right to writing based on what we know. So that's where I think been the most valuable tool for us. It is a moment to pause in the moment to think, a moment to kind of challenge or an assumptions. I like that, and I like the fact that you talked about those overlays because I can think about you might have an alumni of the medical center and a medical school who also is a legacy parent, and so now all that changes that that relationship just just from that legacy layer, and so I'm sure that's part of that PERSONA exercises recognizing that there's there's a lot more to it than just the poster on the wall that you put together in the exercise exactly when we have cards that we have that are made up of different personas. But to your point, like, unless you really think about the complexity of each person they're still humans. We have to acknowledge that, you know, we're humans in are and we're multidimensional, and you they don't want to fit us into a box, same other people were trying to talk to and communicate with. We will be right back after a word from our sponsor. Today's podcast is brought to you by spoke Note, the simple way to add video to anything. If you're looking for an innovative, effective way to get someone's attention, you really ought to check...

...out Spokenote. They make these easy to use QR code stickers that allow you to record and share personalized videos with anybody. We're seeing Spokenote stickers used on campuses in some really interesting ways, such as outreach to prospective students, maybe through acceptance letters, welcome messages from student ambassadors during the campus visit, and orientation, student life applications like placing about me videos outside of dorm room, even personalized fundraising appeals from the development office and athletic recruiting videos from coaches. The applications for spokene in and out of education are really endless. Try them out today by placing an order at spokenote dot com. Welcome back, Let's rejoin the conversation right here on the higher ed marketer. That's great, so as you as we talked about this idea and I kind of alluded to it earlier, about this idea of making it digestible and whether it's educational entertaining, tell me a little bit about I think sometimes the academics hired marketers which are influenced heavily by academics. We can make things really complicated, and you kind of indicated that with the with the cars analogy. Just you know, tell me what you're I mean, you're laughing. People can't see that, but you're laughing. Tell me tell me what you're thinking. Yeah, I mean we if one thing we're strong at is over complicating simplicity, and it's um and it's it's just the process of it. I mean, I think there are nuances to it and it gets in the way of progress sometimes because the focus is so much on why it won't work as opposed to how do you make it work? And so really it was a shifting mindset for us. It's like, okay, well, how do we make this simple? So we did an exercise the other day one of our leadership team retreats was and it was basically on two sides of the room, we needed to map out all of the big, you know, obstacles that were within our control. What are the challenge that we have as a leadership team, everything that's within our control, and then we mapped on the other side of the wall every thing that our challenges that are not in our control. And so then everybody went around the room and did their top five. But what it allowed us do is we would walk through those on either side of the wall and say, okay, well, if it's in our control, how do we as a group solve it because we have absolutely control over that, and how do we simplify the process for those things that are not in our control. It doesn't mean we can't uh make improvements, we just have to work around it. I mean there's a as you know and uh, I was talking about Stoic philosophy. There's a concept of you know, the obstacle is the way, like what we have in front of us, what are the challenges? Often the path forward, but so much we focus on why we can't forward there. So it's a it's a shifting mindst some of us also giving people the freedom to make mistakes. I think in our space and a lot of spaces, the fear of being wrong or something an error happening, uh gets in the way of of innovation and it causes them as a paralysis in that...

...way. And that's been a huge thing for us to work through. Is when somebody comes to me that you know, there there's an extra space and an email. So the salutation was off like it happens. We send it eleven million emails a year. It's gonna happen, um, and you know, and the question is, okay, well, how do we mitigate the next time? And it's not. I mean, I'm glad you brought it to me, but I don't want that to stifle innovation. Yeah yeah, And I'm I'm guessing too that along with all of that, and you kind of indicated in our pre interview was the idea that you've really got this passion for creating that new knowledge, creating those new discoveries that come out of those failures, that come out of those you know, those opportunities to know figure out what we can control and what we have to work around. You know, tell me about that. I mean, you've got some passion around that. I think I do, and and really it is I think where I found most of the discoveries happen is hopefully kind of giving people that space to bring new ideas to the table. I'm not an expert everything in marketing communications. I mean, I'm not your I don't understand ux proper ux for a website the way that somebody who's an expert in that field, if it's social media strategy. But being able to admit that hats and to be open and to allow people to space to bring new ideas to the table has been critical. And again sometimes the hastiness of everything going on has been a challenge for that. But I have learned so much from the team by just being able to step back and sometimes not even reviewing something that goes out, removing myself as the bottleneck and the review process to speed the process up. And so, like I said, I don't need to sign off on everything. Um, if it comes back and there's a problem, I'll take the blame for it. If it's great, we'll give you the credit for it. Like that's if it will learn from those things I think. I think as leaders in this area, giving people the space to do that is critically important for innovation. That's great. I love that, Cutler. During the conversation about content, you naturally touched on channels. So we'd like to talk about not only the content, but where these conversations are taking place. We like to talk about the watering holes. I'm sure that you're as deliberate about the channels and where these conversations are taking place as you are with the content. Yeah, I mean, I mean so with external audiences. I mean we're we're leveraging the same channels probably everybody else's, and we're you know, do we do it great? I mean we're we're still trying to figure it out. And we still were heavy print, still email, were heavy email. We're salesforce marketing cloud now, and so we're leaning heavily into the automation and journeys and the way we haven't done before. Um. We you know, we try multiple digital channels, we Kenny, we have not leaned into TikTok yet. And I the thought around it has been I don't want to just do...

...it and not have a strategy behind it yet. Um. You know, it is constantly changing, and I think that's been the hardest thing. I mean higher it is still a very traditional space in this sector. And you know, digital strategy is oftentimes seen as just sending out more emails or some slightly different segmentation and emails or subject liient testing. That's that's ten years old strategy, um. And so I think we're trying to figure out how to truly evolve that more um and and overlay those things. And again it's we have underinvested in many ways into the data side of things. You know, what is our proper data cleansing process. Do we have the most up todate email addresses? Do we have the most up to date employment information? Can we already reaching out to them in the right channels. If I've got five, you know, four or five email addresses in the system and I'm always sending it to a Bell South dot net email, It's probably wrong and I've got a Gmail in there as well. So have we cycled through and tested those things out in different ways? Um? I think those are those are growth areas for all of us. UM. And you know, every day I turn around, there's something new, there's a new strategy out there. UM. I mean, you hit our site, we're probably not going to retarget you, um, which is a loss in a lot of ways. We're trying to get there. But the Memories web pages are on multiple content management system so we're ever here on droople A while the central pages on Cascade. It's hard to kind of cross polity, and every school is on a different one too. Yeah. I would only imagine that that gets to be pretty challenging. UM. And and and be able to do that. So when when you look at your I mean partly we go back to what we talked about with the personas. Personas can also start to identify where those watering holes are. And I know that you know there's gonna be some natural watering holes with homecoming and and events that you have in cities and things like that. But I think also, um, I think many time highered marketers we missed the opportunity to really look at those other places that are unique to your school or your audience that can become those unique you know, watering holes that might not be for everyone. And you you kind of referred to earlier that the fact that you've got the CDC in your backyard and there's there's other things that are unique to Atlanta. I'm sure that you've got some some watering holes that you've discovered for Emery that you know, if you were to leave Emory and go to another university might not apply. I mean, what are some of those things that that are like that that that you could kind of, you know, have share with everybody that maybe they can start to look at their environment differently to kind of see where they might be able to go. Yeah, I mean we've we've had this conversation quite a bit is around what what pulls people together here. I mean, we don't write, we don't have athletics in the same way we do have an incredible athletics program, but it's nothing that that pulls folks in. We do have homecoms, we had a reposition homecoming reunions, and it is for us, it is because we...

...don't have a central kind of football game we're all around round. So we did a food and music festival because that's kind of this essence of Atlanta a little bit is people will talk about that the music scene and the food scene here, so we kind of we really acknowledge the depth of who we are and what that experience was like here When students go out, there's not I mean, I went to un t Chapel Hill. There's Franklin Street. You can just walk over there, and that was where everything happened. Here is not the same way you're getting in a car. You're going to Buckhead, you're going to Midtown, you're going to the Highlands. And so oftentimes when folks come back, we recreate those experiences. We we think about that area. One thing we've also found that is that people want and what brings them together is access to unique experiences. You know, in New York, we have a producer, a Broadway producer, so he organized a program there that gave Emery A Lum's access to kind of stay after and talk to the director of the play. And it's one of those things that people like that there there's a unique element to this creativity side, and they like access to researchers or financial experts, and so how do you cultivate those whether it is in person or virtually. Are you highlight those in communication? That for us seems to be those are our stars? Those are kind of the things the hooks for folks that get them excited when they're coming together. Yeah, that's that's cool. And I'm guessing that when they come together, whether it's in person or virtually or around an event, even a virtual event like Giving Day, that makes a big difference and allows them to kind of get engaged and and to kind of start to engage that two way conversation. Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, we talked a little bit earlier about Giving Day and you kind of have taken a different approach to that. Tell me a little bit about that. That that thought and the change and the result that you've seen. Yeah, we so we gone from one kind of fairly standard Giving Day and we've we've modified it a little bit more and we actually added it at two. So we did a Giving week here in the fall basically around which is our campaign um and one more focused on kind of departments and programs. Because what you find here is that class year is not really the identifier that people come back to. They were in the department of biology or English or business that really they connect back or it's Greek life or athletics affinity groups that they connect with, and you know, we try, like we want the class of to be really connected, but they're not necessarily and I think for us to acknowledge that, So we've leveraged a little bit of commnity's natural affinity groups as we thought about how we build out those programs. Also, and you know, we leverage gamification within giving days and many of them do. It's like how do you have challenges and matches so people feel...

...that there's other people who are giving, who are excited around this. I mean that it's the kind of the concept of UH like audience identification, for like, I want to see myself in UH the marketing materials. I want to see myself and those who are already giving or social proofing that if other people are doing it, then I'm willing to do this as right. So we lead heavily into those things. UM. We've also everything we do, we leverage merge in a lot, so like I every chance I have to give somebody a t shirt, hat, tumble or something Emery. I go for it, and people are, well, why are we giving away some of my stuff? It's marketing. It is somebody's women. I'm wearing an Emery shirt right now. I want to see that. I want to I want to walk down the street in New York, Atlanta, Des Moines, Iowa and see somebody wearing Emery gear because it means they mean they consciously put something not and Troy it's got a highest state on like that conscious decision to wear, to have a cover. It makes you think about it in a different way. And I think it's kind of an underutilized I mean place like Emory. It's I walk around I was just a walk around campus and I see UH gear from other schools more than Amory. It's one of those things. So at home coming this year, we had, you know, almost seven thousand people signed up for homecoming. We gave out five thousand shirts, and I flew out the next day and I see people wearing him an airport. That's exactly. I'm just curious, what's the most sought after merch that you've had one of our It's not really a mascot, but there's Duly here. So Duley's the skeleton um figure that is really known to undergraduates, and it's it's so unique to me. And I don't call it a mask. I don't really know even what to call it, but it's one of the most identifiable things about Emory. Swooper is our mascot, but really is focused a lot on an athletics time or some of it that is there. But when you talk to undergrounds, if they see Duly and Duly merchandise because it's really hard to get there's not much in the store, they love it. Besides that, it's always hats, like we'll go, we can give hats away left or right because you want to work about sizes. Everybody loves them. That's cool, thank you. That's great, I know for me and a lot of people. And I won't make you say this, Cutler, But when you think of Emery and its brand, you think of it being as one of the elite colleges in the South. And I'm sure that there's a standard that you have to live up to through messaging and from the alumni Advancement chair, if you can share some of the deliberate nous or you know, the differences that you can make and building that brand from the messaging that you do. Yeah, well, it only one correction of that. It's...

...it's one of the most elite universities period, regardless of region. Um I stand corrected. I stand corrected as a Northerner, and when I think of the South. Yes, it's it's a great question. I mean for us, it's how we tell those stories. I mean, I think Emory is sometimes humbled to a fault. I always said, Emory we're doers. We we the a problem, we go solve it, and we move on to the next problem. We don't talk about it. We've just we were onto the next thing. You know. When COVID happened, like our team leaned in and tried to find the best solutions possible and create vaccines. And you know, I mean Emory Hospital had they see the lowest mortality rate of anybody who went on UM and I see you are on a respirator who is COVID positive. And so those are the things that we just do. I mean with a bull of patient. We're the first university hospital to accept the bull of patients when they came in. And so my job is to help tell those stories. And you know we're not folks are not going to be see proud of um certain elements because we don't. They're not going to rally around a final four play or national championship, will rally around transformative research. And I think true impact on on the world. I mean, I think that is that global impact to something I've got. My my responsibility, the weight that we carry as a marketing communications team and with my partners in central Communications and marketing as well, is to make sure we have identified what those stories are, that we tell them in a way that reaches the widest audience possible UM and continues to engage people and look at us in a different a way. I mean it's great. I mean it's not the researchers. I wanted them to keep doing that. I want the students to keep pushing the envelope and our alumni to keep doing great things. My responsibility, our responsibility is too through brand elevation. Is that impact. I mean we talked last time a little bit um Michael Elliots, our former dean uh in Ree College, he's now president at Amherst, and he said this one time, it is always resonating. I was like two weeks on the jobs that our responsibility is to create and share knowledge. It is that is at the core of what we do UM and we have that responsibility. We're not sharing the knowledge to the broadest audience possible. We are delinquent in our mission and I think that is ultimately what we we should continue to do. It's great. I just came back from a conference of marketers and the number one topic that was discussed...

...was d e I and wanted to know if you could share what types of conversations, uh, what you're doing at Emory in regard to d e I. It is a focus of ours here and it is a It is not something that is an indestination. It is a constant journey and some you can't you have to work at. I think you can't be a proficient marketer or communicator unless you focus on d e I because it is about seeing people for who they are, understanding the journeys they have been on, the obstacles that are in their way, how you communicate, how you how you're relevant, and so it means listening more than talking, and I think too long and that's been the challenge of the work that we do is that we talk a lot, and our job is to talk, is to send out messages, and oftentimes we don't hear or pause, and personas are one way to do this, to think through this, to think through experiences. I was talking to some colleagues at an institution as an international institution, and they have students and faculty from a hundred different countries, and they were talking about the unique challenges of how they think about UH marketing communications. And I said and asked me what I would do. I said, well, you have to go engage with those communities. You have to be open to that feedback, You have to challenge your own assumptions. You constantly have to work. There's trainings, but it is being empathetic at your core. Not to get too far back, but I started my workout at a at a great crisis center. I worked on the crisis line of the community education work is kind of how I got into the nonprofit sector, and large part of that training was to listen. Is that we've talked about constant act of listening to the person in front of you, How do you understand that person in front of you? And then you have to scale too, And so I think those are the the core elements that come to d I. You you're going to be uncomfortable. That's okay, I mean it is there are uncomfortable conversations, but and you should have those if you want to be able to build a diverse team. It is a it is a conscious effort and is something you have to work at. You can't be passive and wait for it to come. So I think it's we're never gonna fully be there, but it is something we will always strive for. Yeah, that's such a great reminder, Cutler. I think that, um, you know, it gets to the point of empathy. And I've often told people many many times. I mean, I honestly think that d e I has been taken hostage by politics sometimes and honestly, when you get back to it, and I made this comment in a webinar did recently, is that it's really about doing the right thing. It's it's it's really more about golden rule type of thinking than it is anything specific to d E I. And I I'm really glad to hear you say that...

...and and talk about it from an empathy standpoint, because I think that's where it needs to start. And um, and I really appreciate you sharing that. Thanks. We closed each show by asking our guests that gives us so much during the show, if there was one last piece of advice that you could give that someone could implement immediately, what would that piece of advice be? Ye? Again, I think I'll go back to what I said earlier. It is giving yourself the space and the time and to really slow down and to really pause for a second and try to understand who you're talking to and and really and when I say understand, it is not just you know all the standard things, it's who they are, what are they experience on a daily basis? UM trying to how do I figure out how to meet them where they're at UH and challenge your assumptions around that and giving yourself the space to do that is critically important. We talk here a lot kind of around UM. We have James Rapers, or head of kind of health and wellness services on campus UM, and he talks about the The goal is not happiness. The goal is to acknowledge your human and we've taken a set for us. The goal is to acknowledge the other person's human as well, and so understanding yourself and understand the other person. UM, it'll it'll make you stronger in the field, and it will make you understand your audience better. It'll make you a better market communicator, leader, colleague, and everything. Thank you Cudler, and thank you for your time that you've given us, the wisdom, the energy that you gave us that wisdom through. I'm sure there are people that we're not familiar with you but would love to reach out to you. For them, what would be the best way for them to reach out and connect with you. I love connecting with people in the field, so whether it's LinkedIn or email, I'm fairly easy to get in touch with. UM may not always respond right away, so don't hesitate to pay me again just because of schedules, but that's actually the best part about this. So feel free to shoot me a message via linked in or email. I'll be there. My email is easy. It's just cutlor dot Andrews at Emory dot EEDU. There's not many of us out there. Thank you, Bart. Do you have any closing comments you would like to make before we close our show? Yeah, this has been an incredible episode. I mean we've talked about everything from content to a lot of emotional intelligence, uh, you know, through through empathy and through patients, you know, slowing down to speed up those types of things. And then one thing I really appreciated that that Cutler said, and I'm going to focus on this for just a moment because I you know, I work with a lot of faith based schools. A lot of schools are similar to what Cutler is talking about, where we're humbled to a fault sometimes and I think that while that is very admirable trait, sometimes when we need to tell the stories and move the move the...

...bricks for our university, we need to actually talk about it in a greater context. And so you know, I was talking to a faith based school the other day and we talked about it in the context of Kingdom work type of thing, and that's more of a religious area and angle to it. But I think from from Cutler standpoint, whether you're at a state school or other place, talk about the impact that it has for your university. For those alumni that are proud of their h that and actually gain some worth from their degree, um there there's some some worth in that for them, and so being being able to kind of move beyond maybe that personal humility to more of that greater good for the for the for the university or the college is a little bit something that we need to look at, especially when we tell the stories, when we talk about how those stories might impact them. You know, I love the story about Dooley and the fact that there's a there's a sub story within Emory. Finding those and being able to tell those I think are so important and I I really liked you know, there were three points that that Kelor made there at the end was identifying the stories, telling them through the appropriate channels with empathy, and then also keeping them evergreen so that they can kind of continue on and making that impact. And I guess that's the overall idea, is that let's be able to tell our stories to make a greater impact than just what we might feel ourselves. So thanks again, Keyler, this has been such a good conversation. Bart Cutler, thank you both. The Hired Marketer podcast is sponsored by Kaylor Solutions and Education marketing and branding agency. Also by Ring Digital, a marketing firm that specializes in boosting lifting yield for higher ed with unique, targeted and accurate digital marketing campaigns, and by Thing Patented a marketing execution company combining direct mail and unique digital stacks for higher ED outreach success. On behalf of Bart kaylor my co host, I'm Troy Singer. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to the Higher ED Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with Apple Podcasts, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time.

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